Higham Knew Nothing About the Netwon Thing

[phibes]

Some interesting points made in this thread, well the last couple of pages anyhow...

I'd love to see Higham develop into a more rounded player like Cameron Smith. But his hands need to be better and his support play must improve. He's whole-hearted defender and looks a little bigger this year so that'll help. Agree that he's not there yet and would like to see him start this year and get more opportunity to develop other aspects of his game.

Totally agree about the lack of imagination in our attack last season. Hope to see much better support play and more dummy-running in the coming season.

[DaveO]

GeoffN posted:
True, but it's not the replacing of Higham that's the important issue here (irrespective of who's the better player), it's the fact that it was done behind Higham's back, and the message that sends out, not only to Micky but to the rest of the team.

Well I suppose the alternative would be saying to Higham "Look we really feel Newton is the type of player we want here so if Bradford are willing, would you be prepared to go in exchange?"

The trouble with that is if the deal is rejected (as it was) then the club has just succeeded in upsetting Higham and nothing else.

The trouble is if course it managed that anyway (because McNamara blew the whistle) by going behind his back as you say.

A bit of a no-win situation either way.

I can see the why people say this goes on all the time and is normal business for chairman in IL's defence but I tend to think chairman only make such enquiries when they are really serious about making an offer. Not just in passing as IL seems to imply. If they did that then after IL got off the phone to Hood about Newton he would have been ringing Hethrington up asking when Peacock was available.

So enquiry or offer, behind Higham's back or not it boils down to was this a good idea if you want to look at it only from the teams point of view. In that regard I agree with cpwigan that Newton does not offer enough over Higham and to replace Higham we would need to find a hooker much better than either of them to make it worthwhile.

Dave

[GeoffN]

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
True, but it's not the replacing of Higham that's the important issue here (irrespective of who's the better player), it's the fact that it was done behind Higham's back, and the message that sends out, not only to Micky but to the rest of the team.

Well I suppose the alternative would be saying to Higham "Look we really feel Newton is the type of player we want here so if Bradford are willing, would you be prepared to go in exchange?"

The trouble with that is if the deal is rejected (as it was) then the club has just succeeded in upsetting Higham and nothing else.

The trouble is if course it managed that anyway (because McNamara blew the whistle) by going behind his back as you say.

A bit of a no-win situation either way.

I can see the why people say this goes on all the time and is normal business for chairman in IL's defence but I tend to think chairman only make such enquiries when they are really serious about making an offer. Not just in passing as IL seems to imply. If they did that then after IL got off the phone to Hood about Newton he would have been ringing Hethrington up asking when Peacock was available.

So enquiry or offer, behind Higham's back or not it boils down to was this a good idea if you want to look at it only from the teams point of view. In that regard I agree with cpwigan that Newton does not offer enough over Higham and to replace Higham we would need to find a hooker much better than either of them to make it worthwhile.

Dave

The proper alternative would have been not to mention Higham at all, until getting a response as to whether Newton might be available.

[DaveO]

GeoffN posted:
The proper alternative would have been not to mention Higham at all, until getting a response as to whether Newton might be available.

Very true.

Dave

[highland convert]

Conversation,
IL" when will TN become available? "
Hood " Never really considered it. "
IL " Obviously new kid on the block TN would be a good catch for me. Money is not the object. "
Hood " Would leave us short in that department who you got?
IL " Higham could be a posibility. "
Hood " We will go away and think about it. "


Where is the big deal? Where is the duplicity? Normal business dealings. Higham is not a car to be traded in. He is a good player. TN comes back for a two year contract. Does H feel happy about being second fiddle or does he want to go to B with a guarentee of the jersey? Can Wigan offload him without his permission? Would H have his contract renewed if TN was still here? IL's offer could have been doing him a favour. As it was said a looonnnnnggg time ago this was the initial approach and therefore a deed sodjer from first post. What this thread is saying is IL how dare you manage WW. You can't look to new players. You cant hurt feelings. You must not even suggest a player that might be available for trade. Oh and IL if you are following this thread, how dare you look out for players you might have to offload. Lets face it. IL could hand Higham his years wages and tell him to go west. Its called buying out his contract. On a vote you are happy with the new management yet here is the first controversial decission and teeth are nashing. Higham wants the jersey offcourse he will be upset if the management want to give it to someone else. Offcourse he will be unhappy if Wigan value TN over himself. That's life. Either we get a H that proves IL wrong or we look to change him at the end of his contract. Lets face it from school days how many of us have had disappointments when we were not picked. He has the chance. Twelve months to prove he is up to it. He now knows that IL thinks there are better players out there. Can't be a bad thing. Let's face it every player must play for his position. HC

[DaveO]

highland convert posted:
Conversation,
IL" when will TN become available? "
Hood " Never really considered it. "
IL " Obviously new kid on the block TN would be a good catch for me. Money is not the object. "
Hood " Would leave us short in that department who you got?
IL " Higham could be a posibility. "
Hood " We will go away and think about it. "

Where is the big deal? Where is the duplicity?

It isn't rocket science.

IL. Is Newton available?
Hood. No.

End of conversation.

No need for IL to mention Higham at all.

Normal business dealings. Higham is not a car to be traded in. He is a good player. TN comes back for a two year contract. Does H feel happy about being second fiddle or does he want to go to B with a guarentee of the jersey?

It wasn't an option to stay and be second fiddle. Higham would have had to leave for salary cap reasons.

Can Wigan offload him without his permission?

No. He could refuse to leave and see out his contract. Which IMO makes it all the more bizarre the approach for Newton was made in the first place. IL knew he would have to persuade a contracted player to leave for this to fly and the player has been doing really well in training and by all accounts was looking forward to the season. Why would he even consider agreeing to such a deal?

Would H have his contract renewed if TN was still here?

TN isn't still here and could not come here unless Higham left so that isn't relevant.

IL's offer could have been doing him a favour. As it was said a looonnnnnggg time ago this was the initial approach and therefore a deed sodjer from first post. What this thread is saying is IL how dare you manage WW. You can't look to new players. You cant hurt feelings.

It is saying he made a mistake for various different reasons. Some say so because as Geoff said he simply should not have mentioned Higham's name unless Newton was available. Some like me for that reason and because I don't want a 29 or 30 year old Newton back thanks. We could do without a change to a key position going into the season yet again as well.

You must not even suggest a player that might be available for trade.

Not when the player you want to trade him for isn't available, no! Common sense.

Oh and IL if you are following this thread, how dare you look out for players you might have to offload. Lets face it. IL could hand Higham his years wages and tell him to go west. Its called buying out his contract.

IL isn't that daft. Higham's wages would still count on the salary cap. So if he did that we would just be a player down because we would not be able to fit Newton or anyone else's wages under the cap.

On a vote you are happy with the new management yet here is the first controversial decission and teeth are nashing. Higham wants the jersey offcourse he will be upset if the management want to give it to someone else. Offcourse he will be unhappy if Wigan value TN over himself. That's life.

IL may value Newton more but if he had never mentioned Higham at all no one would be any the wiser about a potential swap, especially Higham. That is good man management. The fact IL didn't expect it to leak out is no excuse. Things that don't need to be said are always best not said and as soon as the answer was "no" about Newton's availability that should of been the end of it.

That doesn't mean I am saying IL should not have asked about Newton. If he wanted to do that then that was up to him. He can run the club how he sees fit but are we bound to agree with all he does because he isn't Mo? I don't agree it was a good idea from an RL point of view but the controversy is/was about how Higham appeared to be being offered behind his back.

Either we get a H that proves IL wrong or we look to change him at the end of his contract. Lets face it from school days how many of us have had disappointments when we were not picked. He has the chance. Twelve months to prove he is up to it. He now knows that IL thinks there are better players out there. Can't be a bad thing. Let's face it every player must play for his position. HC

I don't think having your name bandied about as a potential make weight in a swap deal is quite the same as playing for a new contract.

Dave

[highland convert]

highland convert posted:
Conversation,
IL" when will TN become available? "
Hood " Never really considered it. "
IL " Obviously new kid on the block TN would be a good catch for me. Money is not the object. "
Hood " Would leave us short in that department who you got?
IL " Higham could be a posibility. "
Hood " We will go away and think about it. "

Where is the big deal? Where is the duplicity?
Dave O wrote

It isn't rocket science.

IL. Is Newton available?
Hood. No.

End of conversation.

No need for IL to mention Higham at all.
This still does not say who first broached the exchange. We probably never know.
Normal business dealings. Higham is not a car to be traded in. He is a good player. TN comes back for a two year contract. Does H feel happy about being second fiddle or does he want to go to B with a guarentee of the jersey?

Dave O wrote
It wasn't an option to stay and be second fiddle. Higham would have had to leave for salary cap reasons
Not the case. Higham has a contract.
Can Wigan offload him without his permission?

Dave O answered
No. He could refuse to leave and see out his contract. Which IMO makes it all the more bizarre the approach for Newton was made in the first place. IL knew he would have to persuade a contracted player to leave for this to fly and the player has been doing really well in training and by all accounts was looking forward to the season. Why would he even consider agreeing to such a deal?
Gives more credibility to my theory. This is a storm in a teacup.
Would H have his contract renewed if TN was still here?

Dave o wrote.
TN isn't still here and could not come here unless Higham left so that isn't relevant.
Feka goes down,.Pryce foot collapses. There is more money available than we think. The money could become available or the money is available. The two could be here. Remember the new rule. Prove you are under cap before you sign anyone.

IL's offer could have been doing him a favour. As it was said a looonnnnnggg time ago this was the initial approach and therefore a deed sodjer from first post. What this thread is saying is IL how dare you manage WW. You can't look to new players. You cant hurt feelings.

Dave O wrote
It is saying he made a mistake for various different reasons. Some say so because as Geoff said he simply should not have mentioned Higham's name unless Newton was available. Some like me for that reason and because I don't want a 29 or 30 year old Newton back thanks. We could do without a change to a key position going into the season yet again as well.
For this reason I personally think the Higham swop was a conversational aside not a hard and fast negotiation offer. Maybe Newton was stirring for more loot or getting back to Wigan. IL said only x amount in the kitty. What if you offload Higham to us?
You must not even suggest a player that might be available for trade.

Dave O
Not when the player you want to trade him for isn't available, no! Common sense.
The deal could not have been dead when the barter was being discussed . Common sense.
Oh and IL if you are following this thread, how dare you look out for players you might have to offload. Lets face it. IL could hand Higham his years wages and tell him to go west. Its called buying out his contract.

Dave O
IL isn't that daft. Higham's wages would still count on the salary cap. So if he did that we would just be a player down because we would not be able to fit Newton or anyone else's wages under the cap.
Not if he moved to another team where salary cap was not such a problem. Work that one out yourselves.
On a vote you are happy with the new management yet here is the first controversial decission and teeth are nashing. Higham wants the jersey offcourse he will be upset if the management want to give it to someone else. Offcourse he will be unhappy if Wigan value TN over himself. That's life.

Dave O
IL may value Newton more but if he had never mentioned Higham at all no one would be any the wiser about a potential swap, especially Higham. That is good man management. The fact IL didn't expect it to leak out is no excuse. Things that don't need to be said are always best not said and as soon as the answer was "no" about Newton's availability that should of been the end of it.
When did Hood say no? Was anyone privy to that part of the approach? The underhand dealings seem to be coming from Bradford. How far down the garden path was IL before the plug was pulled? Did the original approach originate in Wigan or Bradford?
Dave O wrote
That doesn't mean I am saying IL should not have asked about Newton. If he wanted to do that then that was up to him. He can run the club how he sees fit but are we bound to agree with all he does because he isn't Mo? I don't agree it was a good idea from an RL point of view but the controversy is/was about how Higham appeared to be being offered behind his back.
Back to the point where the confidentiality of the meeting should have been maintained. If management teams cannot maintain the confidentiality of such meetings they should not manage. If Hood is a gentleman Macnamaras days could be numbered.
Either we get a H that proves IL wrong or we look to change him at the end of his contract. Lets face it from school days how many of us have had disappointments when we were not picked. He has the chance. Twelve months to prove he is up to it. He now knows that IL thinks there are better players out there. Can't be a bad thing. Let's face it every player must play for his position. HC

Dave O wrote
I don't think having your name bandied about as a potential make weight in a swap deal is quite the same as playing for a new contract.

How many players come good in their last six months of their contract?

HC

[butt monkey]

highland convert posted:
How many players come good in their last six months of their contract?

HC

Most of 'em

[GeoffN]

highland convert posted:

How many players come good in their last six months of their contract?

HC

That's irrelevant, and in any case doesn't justify renewing. I can think of two recent examples: Danny Orr & DV.

Struggling to read the rest of the post; the quotes are all missing.

[DaveO]

highland convert posted:

No need for IL to mention Higham at all.
This still does not say who first broached the exchange. We probably never know.

Why would Bradford suggest it when they are not interested in selling Newton? It is obvious it must have come from IL. In any case he said so himself in his post on rlfans.

Dave O wrote
It wasn't an option to stay and be second fiddle. Higham would have had to leave for salary cap reasons
Not the case. Higham has a contract.
Can Wigan offload him without his permission?

Dave O answered
No. He could refuse to leave and see out his contract. Which IMO makes it all the more bizarre the approach for Newton was made in the first place. IL knew he would have to persuade a contracted player to leave for this to fly and the player has been doing really well in training and by all accounts was looking forward to the season. Why would he even consider agreeing to such a deal?
Gives more credibility to my theory. This is a storm in a teacup.

How do you conclude that? Are you agreeing with me that because Wigan would have had to persuade Higham to leave it was an odd thing to enquire about Newton in the first place? If not I am not sure what you are trying to say when you say it gives credibility to your theory.

Would H have his contract renewed if TN was still here?

Dave o wrote.
TN isn't still here and could not come here unless Higham left so that isn't relevant.
Feka goes down,.Pryce foot collapses. There is more money available than we think. The money could become available or the money is available. The two could be here. Remember the new rule. Prove you are under cap before you sign anyone.

But none of those things had happened at the time IL enquired about Newton which is the crucial point.

If you are talking about possible offers for Newton in the future that has nothing to do with the ins and outs of what went on recently.

IL's offer could have been doing him a favour. As it was said a looonnnnnggg time ago this was the initial approach and therefore a deed sodjer from first post.

Eh?

What this thread is saying is IL how dare you manage WW. You can't look to new players. You cant hurt feelings.

Dave O wrote
It is saying he made a mistake for various different reasons. Some say so because as Geoff said he simply should not have mentioned Higham's name unless Newton was available. Some like me for that reason and because I don't want a 29 or 30 year old Newton back thanks. We could do without a change to a key position going into the season yet again as well.
For this reason I personally think the Higham swop was a conversational aside not a hard and fast negotiation offer.

[/quote]

To get Newton on the books for 2008 would have required Higham to leave. No two ways about it.

And anyway conversational aside or not we get back to the point once IL was told Newton was not available that should have been the end of it. No need to mention Higham as said previously.

Maybe Newton was stirring for more loot or getting back to Wigan. IL said only x amount in the kitty. What if you offload Higham to us?

From IL's comments we know it didn't happen like that. Bradford were simply not interested in releasing Newton is the bottom line.

You must not even suggest a player that might be available for trade.

Dave O
Not when the player you want to trade him for isn't available, no! Common sense.
The deal could not have been dead when the barter was being discussed . Common sense.

Bradford said Newton was not available. IL knew Higham had a contract for 2008 so to instigate a barter behind the players back gets us back right back to the beginning. Anyway I thought you were arguing it was a conversational aside?

Oh and IL if you are following this thread, how dare you look out for players you might have to offload. Lets face it. IL could hand Higham his years wages and tell him to go west. Its called buying out his contract.

Dave O
IL isn't that daft. Higham's wages would still count on the salary cap. So if he did that we would just be a player down because we would not be able to fit Newton or anyone else's wages under the cap.
Not if he moved to another team where salary cap was not such a problem.

That is NOT what you said. You said buy out his contract, pure and simple. You can not do that in RL as it counts on the salary cap. Period.

Work that one out yourselves.
On a vote you are happy with the new management yet here is the first controversial decission and teeth are nashing.

What is your point? That because the new management has done well so far when they screw up we can't criticise? I am sure they will do something else right in future so am I not allowed to say so because I disagree with what has gone on here?

Higham wants the jersey offcourse he will be upset if the management want to give it to someone else. Offcourse he will be unhappy if Wigan value TN over himself. That's life.

Dave O
IL may value Newton more but if he had never mentioned Higham at all no one would be any the wiser about a potential swap, especially Higham. That is good man management. The fact IL didn't expect it to leak out is no excuse. Things that don't need to be said are always best not said and as soon as the answer was "no" about Newton's availability that should of been the end of it.
When did Hood say no? Was anyone privy to that part of the approach?

We all are privy to it. IL published details of what was said and when it was said on rlfans. He basically sets out the time-frame and sequence of events. Haven't you read it? IL tells us Bradford said Newton was not available.

The underhand dealings seem to be coming from Bradford. How far down the garden path was IL before the plug was pulled? Did the original approach originate in Wigan or Bradford?

You really need to read IL's version of events before trying to sugggest there is doubt about who approached who. It was IL who approached Hood. Of that there is no doubt.

Where Bradford screwed up was with McNamara rushing off to the press as soon as he ans Hood knocked back Wigan's approach.

Dave O wrote
That doesn't mean I am saying IL should not have asked about Newton. If he wanted to do that then that was up to him. He can run the club how he sees fit but are we bound to agree with all he does because he isn't Mo? I don't agree it was a good idea from an RL point of view but the controversy is/was about how Higham appeared to be being offered behind his back.
Back to the point where the confidentiality of the meeting should have been maintained. If management teams cannot maintain the confidentiality of such meetings they should not manage. If Hood is a gentleman Macnamaras days could be numbered.

None of which alters the fact IL made an approach for Newton which as I said he was free to do but is something I don't agree with.

Either we get a H that proves IL wrong or we look to change him at the end of his contract. Lets face it from school days how many of us have had disappointments when we were not picked. He has the chance. Twelve months to prove he is up to it. He now knows that IL thinks there are better players out there. Can't be a bad thing. Let's face it every player must play for his position. HC

Dave O wrote
I don't think having your name bandied about as a potential make weight in a swap deal is quite the same as playing for a new contract.

How many players come good in their last six months of their contract?

It is just not relevant as Geoff said. The decision at the end of 2008 will be whether to offer Higham a new contract or possibly go for a 30 year old Newton or even someone else altogether. They won't base that on Higham's last six months work. If he is garbage all season he won't stand a chance of a new deal but any player will hope to go well in the last season of a contract so if his current club don't want him another will. I am still not sure of what relevance this is.

Dave