Fans Forum - Status quo, No change

[Matthew]

I think that whilst IL maybe publicly supporting Noble; in private he will be asking questions. If Noble loses to Wakefield (never mind the 3 almost certain defeats to cats, stains and leeds) - which would almost certainly see us fail to make the play-offs; then I would think that it is a done deal that he will go.

Although we didn't make the play-offs in Noble's first season; (we were docked points in that and the following season) we have turned in more exciting performances than this season - I am sure that I am not the only one that remembers the buzz around the club at the end of last season.

The "talk" that the players are alledged to have had should surely be a regular occurrence? There should be discussions every week at training - if the players don't have any input; then how are they to feel like anything other than an employee of the club? Discussion can only help the team spirit - which is one of the things that this side are badly in need of.

Will any players be dropped after Friday? Surely a couple of players are due a reality check. Hock for sure will not play - who else will be missing - will Calderwood return?

The team selection against Hull will give us some sort of idea of who Noble thinks is failing - or of course it could just be the usual suspects minus Hock!

[GeoffN]

The team selection against Hull will give us some sort of idea of who Noble thinks is failing - or of course it could just be the usual suspects minus Hock!

It is.

http://www.wiganwarriors.com/news_full.asp?newsid=4085

Richard Mathers, Mark Calderwood, Darrell Goulding, George Carmont, Pat Richards, Trent Barrett, Thomas Leuluai, Stuart Fielden, Mickey Higham, Iafeta Paleaaesina, Phil Bailey, Liam Colbon, Andy Coley, Harrison Hansen, Cameron Phelps, Joel Tomkins, Eamon O'Carroll, Lee Mossop, Tim Smith.

[Red Hot Mama]

In all honesty the team is what you would expect. Its not like we have signed 2 new play makers and 2 enforcer style props since Saturday. Just lets hope its the team that played against Leeds and not the one against Huddersfield that turns up

[stacey c]

I'm enjoying this debate, as someone who probably stands somewhere in between the two "extremes". I agree with Mike, though - lets keep personalities out of this and just address the arguments, not the people!

As most of you know, by now, I'm usually a "glass half-full" person when it comes to Wigan - although that optimism has been severely dented recently. I initially voted to give Noble more time, when that poll was first set up, and although I haven't really changed my mind, the time I'm prepared to allow him has gone down.

It remains to be seen whether the "talk" that the players had will have any effect - we'll find that out on Friday, and the other 4 games left. In any case, this season's pretty much a write-off; we aren't going to get to the GF from 5th or 6th. Results now are less important than performances, and if nothing gets dramatically better for the next 5 or 6 games I suspect we've seen the last of Noble, despite IL's support.

As far as finances go, I think IL has a valid case. It seems clear that a lot of potential sponsorship was lost to the club under DW (especially the JJB income), and that takes time to rectify. In any case, although increased turnover is, of course, important, I don't see that getting an 'A' licence in itself is all that important - any 'A' or 'B' club will be safe in SL, it's all the 'C's that need to improve.

:eusa2: :eusa2: :eusa2:

[ddtftf]

Hi CP you know who I am, so if you email me at ddtftf@aol.com I have info for you that I cannot post here

[Sutty]

Hi CP you know who I am, so if you email me at ddtftf@aol.com I have info for you that I cannot post here

It's not really fair of you to come on here and post something as enticing as that. For all we know it may be a fantastically juicy bit of gossip that we would all like to know about.
As keen as I am to know what it is that you know, I'm going to refrain from asking you, because I don't want to put you in a potentially awkward position.

Just a word of advice though, in future if you have info that cannot be posted on here but you want to share it with a fellow member, please PM them instead of putting us all on tenter hooks

[Dubs]

One question for cpwigan though - how do you square your impression that IL would not be investing in the club, with the recent RFL statment that we are partial reliant on our major shareholder? These seem like contrasting if not conflicting statments to me. Perhaps IL's focus on increasing turnover is driven by the requirment to aim at an A license in 2010, rather than something more sinister.

I agree re the desire to achieve A status in 2010 The "A turnover of at least £4 million per annum" Any Club wants to meet that criteria. However, just to add a cautionary footnote. When the licence was due to be announced I seem to recall the propaganda eminating from the club was that the reason we did not meet that criteria was an accounting technicality and they were hoping the RFL would accept their POV. The comments at the forum seem to contradict that previous assertion. So which is true? Therein lies a problem the more you talk publically and say anything but the complete truth at all times the more likely you are to trip yourself up.

As I said at the time I do not understand the RFL being so obsessed with shareholder dependency. That is the way of the sporting world in the UK to the best of my knowledge and maybe in other countries. Simon Moran is the best thing that ever happened to Warrington, Leeds in their entirety owe a lot to a single person. You could go on and on. We knew anyway that our income for accounting purposes was heavily affected by Whelan being our owner and JJB owner. Free from that, it stands to reason sponsorship revenue and such like should improve. It is a non issue for me.

The one thing I do know is that the things I have been saying here for months and others too have suddenly become revelations because IL and JL have acknowledged them. A players development / career is critical. The whole cycle of player turnover that JL acknowledges is vital has to operate like a production line. Therein lies the crux. If I could see it, if others could see it why does it take IL / JL 6 months to realise that the problems I get bored repeating myself need addressing.

As an example, does anybody believe IL / JL did not know that most clubs have 3 conditioners or that our conditioning programmes were totally inadequate. Of course not. So why did they not act sooner? Why wait 6 months and another 6 months? That could be 10% of the career of every player at this club from academy to reserve to first team that the club has served inadequately. Those 80+ employees (players) are the KEY RESOURCE this club has and yet it chose to not invest immediately in them.

INVESTMENT has to be quality. Mike Forshaw is not a world renowned conditioner. If somebody is going to lead any aspects of our players development they must be world renowned. They have to be that good. If they are not then just putting 3 Mike Forshaws together produces 3 salaries and by and large the same standard of conditioning. The improvement in our key resource (players) will be negligible. Appoint a world renowned conditioner and the improvement in our players could be vast.

World class = expensive investment. The return is a far better squad, far better team, better results, better crowds, better revenue, a club becoming more self sufficient. However, all businesses struggle to invest solely from profit. So they borrow. Sports clubs can also borrow but they have another option philanthropic owners and if you want the best then you need owners who are prepared to dig deep.

If your owner will not dig deep you are forced to employ average ability coaching staff and even drag the process out over years to rectify. The return is a squad whose potential is not realised, a poorer team, worse results, lower crowds, less revenue unless you screw the remaining supporters and a club no nearer becoming self sufficient.

Start at the top and work down. Brian Noble is not a world renowned coach. NO British RL coach is world renowned. If you want world renowned he has to be an Australian NRL coach. Whatsmore, the day he become your coach, he starts to lose in terms of his own education. Away from the NRL his own education / development suffers. That is why 3 years is the maximum any such coach can remain here. The assistants? If your grooming them as future coaches they need to be going to the NRL periodically to develop additional skills.

Everything I have listened to re IL leads me to believe he is not prepared to do that. He paid his price by buying the club and allowing his to live 'his dream' However, he then drew a line. The difference is that the line he drew for himself, the % of his own income he is willing to commit is far far less than the % of Joe Bloggs Fans income that he wants him to commit. True fans do that, sporting passion and fan behaviour is illogical. Oh wait I thought IL was a fan yet he does not behave like one. That is why I say the only real fan owner that ever existed was Jack Walker.

Talk is cheap as they say and IL can certainly talk not that it would take much to convince most Wigan fans because like all fans they are illogical and they wanted to see DW / ML go. IL could have sold bottles of corporation pop labelled as holy Wigan RLFC water to 90% of the people who attended that forum.

I see an inherently conservative man living out his dream. That conservatism means one thing, slow change. Hoyle and Moran had Cullen out 10 minutes after the kick off when they lost in a similar fashion to Wigan v Huddersfield. End result fortunes improved. What do we do? Not a lot. Whatsmore, Huddersfield was not a one off. Wigan RLFC have not produced 1 ONE outstanding SL effort for the full 80 minutes in 2008. Worse, they have shown they can for 40 minutes, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes.

Mike you are probably right re my approach but I am too annoyed to let it concern me. Whatsmore, at the opposite end of the spectrum and equally poor in approach is the weekly letter production in the WEP by Barbara and Jeanette. Just as there will be people will be saying oh CPs lost the plot again and not read the thread/post there are people saying oh another letter from Barbara and another from Jeanette and turning over that page in the WEP. That is the right of people. Nobody has to agree / even read what anybody else publishes.

However, on this issue whether they agree or not lots of people seem to be reading.

The bottom line for me is that Wigan RLFC enjoys a unique place in RL. Whether others like it or not Wigan RLFC is considered THE CLUB. Why? History/heritage combined with repeated cycles of success. It is those cycles of success that keep that unique place. It could have been Hunslet, it could have been Huddersfield but they both lost that opportunity. Wigan RLFC nearly lost / endangered that opportunity with a very mediocre decade in the 1970's and then the early 1980's. Whatever ML, JR, JH, TR did right or wrong we owe them a debt because that period of success rescued what defines Wigan RLFC what make this club unique and special. Now for nearly a decade our place / the very soul of what this club is has been threatened by mismanagement. These ever lengthening / more frequent periods of mediocrity place what matters increasingly at risk and what actually being proud to be Wigan is about. That special pride is not set in stone and it has to be earned / fought for. Otherwise Wigan RLFC become just another grand historic club. A club that may aswell be dead. That is the responsibility every custodian who takes temporary charge of this club has to meet.

A good post, a lot of which I agree with. BUT.... at least give IL a chance eh.

[cpwigan]

One question for cpwigan though - how do you square your impression that IL would not be investing in the club, with the recent RFL statment that we are partial reliant on our major shareholder? These seem like contrasting if not conflicting statments to me. Perhaps IL's focus on increasing turnover is driven by the requirment to aim at an A license in 2010, rather than something more sinister.

I agree re the desire to achieve A status in 2010 The "A turnover of at least £4 million per annum" Any Club wants to meet that criteria. However, just to add a cautionary footnote. When the licence was due to be announced I seem to recall the propaganda eminating from the club was that the reason we did not meet that criteria was an accounting technicality and they were hoping the RFL would accept their POV. The comments at the forum seem to contradict that previous assertion. So which is true? Therein lies a problem the more you talk publically and say anything but the complete truth at all times the more likely you are to trip yourself up.

As I said at the time I do not understand the RFL being so obsessed with shareholder dependency. That is the way of the sporting world in the UK to the best of my knowledge and maybe in other countries. Simon Moran is the best thing that ever happened to Warrington, Leeds in their entirety owe a lot to a single person. You could go on and on. We knew anyway that our income for accounting purposes was heavily affected by Whelan being our owner and JJB owner. Free from that, it stands to reason sponsorship revenue and such like should improve. It is a non issue for me.

The one thing I do know is that the things I have been saying here for months and others too have suddenly become revelations because IL and JL have acknowledged them. A players development / career is critical. The whole cycle of player turnover that JL acknowledges is vital has to operate like a production line. Therein lies the crux. If I could see it, if others could see it why does it take IL / JL 6 months to realise that the problems I get bored repeating myself need addressing.

As an example, does anybody believe IL / JL did not know that most clubs have 3 conditioners or that our conditioning programmes were totally inadequate. Of course not. So why did they not act sooner? Why wait 6 months and another 6 months? That could be 10% of the career of every player at this club from academy to reserve to first team that the club has served inadequately. Those 80+ employees (players) are the KEY RESOURCE this club has and yet it chose to not invest immediately in them.

INVESTMENT has to be quality. Mike Forshaw is not a world renowned conditioner. If somebody is going to lead any aspects of our players development they must be world renowned. They have to be that good. If they are not then just putting 3 Mike Forshaws together produces 3 salaries and by and large the same standard of conditioning. The improvement in our key resource (players) will be negligible. Appoint a world renowned conditioner and the improvement in our players could be vast.

World class = expensive investment. The return is a far better squad, far better team, better results, better crowds, better revenue, a club becoming more self sufficient. However, all businesses struggle to invest solely from profit. So they borrow. Sports clubs can also borrow but they have another option philanthropic owners and if you want the best then you need owners who are prepared to dig deep.

If your owner will not dig deep you are forced to employ average ability coaching staff and even drag the process out over years to rectify. The return is a squad whose potential is not realised, a poorer team, worse results, lower crowds, less revenue unless you screw the remaining supporters and a club no nearer becoming self sufficient.

Start at the top and work down. Brian Noble is not a world renowned coach. NO British RL coach is world renowned. If you want world renowned he has to be an Australian NRL coach. Whatsmore, the day he become your coach, he starts to lose in terms of his own education. Away from the NRL his own education / development suffers. That is why 3 years is the maximum any such coach can remain here. The assistants? If your grooming them as future coaches they need to be going to the NRL periodically to develop additional skills.

Everything I have listened to re IL leads me to believe he is not prepared to do that. He paid his price by buying the club and allowing his to live 'his dream' However, he then drew a line. The difference is that the line he drew for himself, the % of his own income he is willing to commit is far far less than the % of Joe Bloggs Fans income that he wants him to commit. True fans do that, sporting passion and fan behaviour is illogical. Oh wait I thought IL was a fan yet he does not behave like one. That is why I say the only real fan owner that ever existed was Jack Walker.

Talk is cheap as they say and IL can certainly talk not that it would take much to convince most Wigan fans because like all fans they are illogical and they wanted to see DW / ML go. IL could have sold bottles of corporation pop labelled as holy Wigan RLFC water to 90% of the people who attended that forum.

I see an inherently conservative man living out his dream. That conservatism means one thing, slow change. Hoyle and Moran had Cullen out 10 minutes after the kick off when they lost in a similar fashion to Wigan v Huddersfield. End result fortunes improved. What do we do? Not a lot. Whatsmore, Huddersfield was not a one off. Wigan RLFC have not produced 1 ONE outstanding SL effort for the full 80 minutes in 2008. Worse, they have shown they can for 40 minutes, for 5 minutes, for 10 minutes.

Mike you are probably right re my approach but I am too annoyed to let it concern me. Whatsmore, at the opposite end of the spectrum and equally poor in approach is the weekly letter production in the WEP by Barbara and Jeanette. Just as there will be people will be saying oh CPs lost the plot again and not read the thread/post there are people saying oh another letter from Barbara and another from Jeanette and turning over that page in the WEP. That is the right of people. Nobody has to agree / even read what anybody else publishes.

However, on this issue whether they agree or not lots of people seem to be reading.

The bottom line for me is that Wigan RLFC enjoys a unique place in RL. Whether others like it or not Wigan RLFC is considered THE CLUB. Why? History/heritage combined with repeated cycles of success. It is those cycles of success that keep that unique place. It could have been Hunslet, it could have been Huddersfield but they both lost that opportunity. Wigan RLFC nearly lost / endangered that opportunity with a very mediocre decade in the 1970's and then the early 1980's. Whatever ML, JR, JH, TR did right or wrong we owe them a debt because that period of success rescued what defines Wigan RLFC what make this club unique and special. Now for nearly a decade our place / the very soul of what this club is has been threatened by mismanagement. These ever lengthening / more frequent periods of mediocrity place what matters increasingly at risk and what actually being proud to be Wigan is about. That special pride is not set in stone and it has to be earned / fought for. Otherwise Wigan RLFC become just another grand historic club. A club that may aswell be dead. That is the responsibility every custodian who takes temporary charge of this club has to meet.

A good post, a lot of which I agree with. BUT.... at least give IL a chance eh.

Recent information has changed my stance. I will support IL N.B That does not mean you agree with everything blindly. However, I am far far more convinced that Noble and friends have to go. My concerns/worst fears about Noble have been strongly reinforced.

[emperorkel]

Its interesting that Lydon felt it necassary to tell us that Nobbie spent so much time at the club but analyse what he said.
Noble at Orrel till early hours and then back by 6.30, take out the time for a round trip to Bradford and he had a short time at home. Then left at 11.30 but back after game. Most of this time was spent without any players being present and really begs the question why(unless he was composing his resignation letter. If I had been coach aftert he last three performances the players would have been there all day Saturday and Sunday and I would have told the BBC to feck off because I had a more important job to do. Nobles problem seems to be that he spends a lot of time at the club but very little with the players

[Sutty]

Its interesting that Lydon felt it necassary to tell us that Nobbie spent so much time at the club but analyse what he said.
Noble at Orrel till early hours and then back by 6.30, take out the time for a round trip to Bradford and he had a short time at home. Then left at 11.30 but back after game. Most of this time was spent without any players being present and really begs the question why(unless he was composing his resignation letter. If I had been coach aftert he last three performances the players would have been there all day Saturday and Sunday and I would have told the BBC to feck off because I had a more important job to do. Nobles problem seems to be that he spends a lot of time at the club but very little with the players

I can see your point but I think you may be reading too much into the statement. I'm sure that Nobby does spend a lot of time with the players, however, on this occassion, maybe he was just trying to get things in place to fully dissect the performance and set up training regimes / protocols for the following week.

Some on here would give the impression that they know everything that does and doesn't go on at training sessions. However, the only people that really know what happens everyday are the staff and the players. All the rest of us can do is try and piece together the snippets of information that filters through to us from people who may watch the odd training session or speak to people who have contacts in the club.