Wigan squad for Challenge Cup Final

[Charriots Offiah]

You must have been hibernating…… we are going for 4 In A row , double is a 90’s thing !

I won’t comment on the game , will be interpreted as being bitter !

You have the cup ‘ Just like that ‘ Wigan ‘ Tommy cooper ‘ warriors .sorry , couldn’t resist !

Have a great few days , enjoy our misery ! Have a drink on us

I have got to give you credit Saint for coming on this forum and giving Wigan some credit. It sets you apart from the morons on Red Vee. Nevertheless, trying to dumb down Wigan’s previous achievements, which set them apart from any other rugby league team on the planet is so disingenuous. Saints winning 3 SL Grand Finals in a row is a great achievement but in no way compares to the success of Wigan in the 80s/90s. I will have a great weekend celebrating our history making success in fact, it will almost certainly do so over the bank holiday weekend as well

Thanks for the credit , appreciated. I love rugby league and love rugby discussion althoughthese forum are not the best place for it at times .

I seen every one of the Wigans CC wins during that period . Thankfully my folks took me to every final from 83-99 . I recall actually supporting Wigan for the 85 final ! By 87 I was a ‘ real’ saints fan So no more of that nonsense . My Dad was a big saints fan but supported Wigan in every one of the 88-95 wins . I guess my respect for opposition fans etc stems from him . In 88 I was sat on the greyhound track surround the pitch due to overcrowding so that was an experience .

That period was a great time for Wigan but not necessarily for rugby league . The playing field was not necessarily level during that time . Barry ledger for example told me he got paid 90 quid for playing a losing in the 87 final he would have got 150 for winning ( which would have topped up his salary from XXX glass factory. The 89 final our home grown lads wasn’t on much more and still working while playing .

In 88 Wigan players were being paid a full time salary when others were not collectively . Wigan had an massive economic pull for the best players . And boy did you have some great players . Some of the best players I’ve seen came from that period . World class players from 1-15 when the rest of the league could only manage 3 or 4 if they were lucky .

That’s on the field ,the pros was that Wigan as a club led the way in the future and that I commend . Maurice Lyndsey (God bless his soul) developed the Wigan model Into a professional and elite sport. By 96 the playing field had levelled and it’s fair to say Saints have probably excelled beyond most clubs aside from Leeds who maybe equal to us . From memory during the last 26 years 8 CC 8 GF winners league leaders ? 2 WCC . As well as this , built our own stadium and developed more players though our system that I suspect only Wigan could challenge . I did read a RL article stating that we have supplied the Two Tiers of English rugby with more players than any other . The continuous development is still happening with a drive for our ladies game and now scholarships now starting earlier and community collaboration more active then anywhere else ! During this period we have been the most successful team on and off the pitch . We have always , even in our down time been in finals and l there about Which is some achievement

I can’t take away that Wigan dominated English rugby no question during that period but you have had some mega lows . If my dads rugby history lesson serves me right you was relegated , and had a pretty poor time from 1960-1985 . Even coming close to relegation in the super league era.

What is more surprising is - please don’t take this the wrong it’s for discussion and not point scoring , is the seemingly acceptance of mediocrity within the Wigan team for many years ! Without sounding petulant ( my honest view ) I don’t rate the Wigan team now and has been lacking in quality for a few years ( and the fans acceptance and defence of such given your history is filled more in hope than ambition) . I rate matty peet . He is a breath of fresh air to our game and with the right players and balance you will get back on top again , no question . However some players are not fit to wear the jersey . I do not rate French and field is overhyped but has ‘ something’ speed . He scores for fun against Wakefield but can he do the same against a solid defence ? I’ve yet to see evidence .

Powell ? Is he Wigan standard. Mago ?

I could go on making points for debate and i love nothing more than rugby chat in a pub this isn’t the best place for discussion as it often turns into point scoring . Just want to make it clear I’m not writing this for that purpose .

I’ll finish on the game ! The worst team won , the second to worst team lost , there wasn’t a best team .Hudds did a park the bus style job the very nearly worked. I find it difficult how some people have commented about Smithies that he was right not to be sin binned ( at least) on two occasions he purposely issued a forearm to the head . Direct contact with the head as we have seen this season is a straight red . To do it twice and not see a card is baffling . He should have had a least 10 . What’s disappoint is smithies has not realised the effect that could have had . Flower in the final arguably lost his team the cup for his actions . Smithies could well have done the same . Smithies is , I’d say average maybe a little more but worthless if he offers actions like that .

You struggled to break Huddersfield down and that must be a worry and equally back up my premise that I don’t rate Wigan as a team ( yet)

I’ll say again, I’m adding to discussion and not in away arguing or point Scoring . I’m not saying I’m right - but the points made are my belief and I’ll stick by them until I see otherwise . When I do , I’ll come back on here and hold my hands up .

You are our fierce rivals , but I have nothing against any of you ! On the whole good people and I say again . Well done on your win ! I’m now desperate for a show down in the final . I need revenge so I can be at peace

I like reading your posts Saint and I also like the fact that you are willing to discuss the fine arts of the sport rather than some of your compatriots who are just trolls.

Obviously, that doesn’t mean we have to agree but provided our opinions are supported by facts then I have no problem carrying on a conversation. Regarding Wigan’s dominance in the 80s/90s, I think people have short memories. It is suggested that we were professional, during the whole of this period, whilst all other teams were semi-professional, it is just not true. But it points to the reason why Wigan do not get the credit they deserve.

Sport, at the highest level, is all about small margins. Maurice Lindsay and the other three members of the Gang of Four recognised that and made significant adjustments. They had the vision to take Wigan to another level, they were responsible for our success. Success which included travelling to Australia and beating Brisbane in their own backyard, during their NRL season, and beating Manly at Central Park at the end of both club’s seasons. Wigan, at that time, can rightly be termed the best because we beat the best on a level playing field. Since those glory years the game has been dumbed down in the UK, the standard of SL diminished to a point where even the mighty Saints would, and have, been blown away by our Aussie friends in what the Australian’s consider to be a friendly. We should all embrace the success of Wigan during that period, it will never happen again.

Undoubtedly, Saints are the best team at the moment and whilst from my point of view it is an annoyance it is actually a fact. Are they as good as the Saints team of the 60’s and 70’s, or even the team that were so often bridesmaids in the 80’s and 90’s, I would argue not. Although, I would accept that the likes of Roby and Walmsley would have cut it. Every team in the competition needs to raise their game not complain. We will see change as, so often in sport, success comes in cycles. Keep looking over your shoulder the times are a changing.

[saint]

Someone else above also notes that I was wrong in my statement . I’ll try and expand on what I meant .

My view was - during the period of your dominance ( 88-95) the playing field wasn’t level ! I was wrong to say you was professional and the rest wasn’t so I’ll explain further what my understanding is and why I believe this is the case .

Wigan in the early to mid 80’s had some visionary’s , business men , pro active capitalistic minded people who seen a potential in creating business model around Wigan RFLC . They all (4 stakeholder) may well have had the same love and passion to see Wigan's success but I feel that there was some business orientated motivation . Irrespective , they had a vision to make Wigan great ! Lyndsey , Rathbone? Jack? And A N other backed a model of investment for success and return . By 1987 the stakeholders committed to spending . The money was available when every other club have buttons to exchange for players . The economic pull was colossal and wigan over the years built an empire by buying and cherry picking whoever the choose . Without any regulation this was perfectly legal but uncompetitive . It was in essence a monopoly . Andy Platt , Lydon Gregory , Hanley , Skerret , Connelly , offiah , mcginty . Players irrespective of being ‘ part time’ 88-91awere where being paid handsomely with irresistible buying power . The investment model was backed up and supported by proof of success . the success was inevitable and so it proved - more players rolled in and more handsome offers could be had .

However , this all came at a cost ( a bit like the banking crisis ) you lost in the quarter final of the CC against Salford in 96 . This had a significant impact on financial and dept increasing situation . I believe that Wigan was within 48 hour of becoming bust ! Enters DW! Following on , it took a while to recover . 96 saw regulation , your defeat at Sheffield 98 was more than a defeat on the field ……..

In conclusion - a business venture / passion to make Wigan heresy built a monopoly of power above there counterparts . Others could not compete and the playing field was made uneven . You could argue that these people risen from the rest and took there chances , they certainly did however we could be discussing how Wigan became bankrupt . Wigan had the money when others did not and the power they had made the playing field disproportionately balanced in favour of Wigan . And that’s why Wigan had so much success ; in my view !

[fozzieskem]

Someone else above also notes that I was wrong in my statement . I’ll try and expand on what I meant .

My view was - during the period of your dominance ( 88-95) the playing field wasn’t level ! I was wrong to say you was professional and the rest wasn’t so I’ll explain further what my understanding is and why I believe this is the case .

Wigan in the early to mid 80’s had some visionary’s , business men , pro active capitalistic minded people who seen a potential in creating business model around Wigan RFLC . They all (4 stakeholder) may well have had the same love and passion to see Wigan's success but I feel that there was some business orientated motivation . Irrespective , they had a vision to make Wigan great ! Lyndsey , Rathbone? Jack? And A N other backed a model of investment for success and return . By 1987 the stakeholders committed to spending . The money was available when every other club have buttons to exchange for players . The economic pull was colossal and wigan over the years built an empire by buying and cherry picking whoever the choose . Without any regulation this was perfectly legal but uncompetitive . It was in essence a monopoly . Andy Platt , Lydon Gregory , Hanley , Skerret , Connelly , offiah , mcginty . Players irrespective of being ‘ part time’ 88-91awere where being paid handsomely with irresistible buying power . The investment model was backed up and supported by proof of success . the success was inevitable and so it proved - more players rolled in and more handsome offers could be had .

However , this all came at a cost ( a bit like the banking crisis ) you lost in the quarter final of the CC against Salford in 96 . This had a significant impact on financial and dept increasing situation . I believe that Wigan was within 48 hour of becoming bust ! Enters DW! Following on , it took a while to recover . 96 saw regulation , your defeat at Sheffield 98 was more than a defeat on the field ……..

In conclusion - a business venture / passion to make Wigan heresy built a monopoly of power above there counterparts . Others could not compete and the playing field was made uneven . You could argue that these people risen from the rest and took there chances , they certainly did however we could be discussing how Wigan became bankrupt . Wigan had the money when others did not and the power they had made the playing field disproportionately balanced in favour of Wigan . And that’s why Wigan had so much success ; in my view !

I actually don’t think you’re being unfair with your assessment if I’m being honest and Wigans issues that followed the “golden age”were down to the guarantee of success that was needed to stop the books plunging into the red as the,much like the banking crisis,would surely happen when keep spending at the rate Wigan did.

I’ve had mixed feelings over Lindsay’s era ever since the news of his death came out,yes he was a visionary but sadly the rest of the sport navel gazed while Wigan took a chance and spent on the best ultimately forcing the sport to try and catch up,of course it was an empire built on sand,but my god anyone lucky enough to have seen any of those teams Wigan put out back then would say it was worth it…the manly game alone for me sealed that deal,the walk home to skem that night seemed to take moments…happy memories,looking back now of course it would end in tears as it so nearly did as you say.

Are Wigan a good side now?er it needs balancing out for sure,Field we shall find out soon enough if he’s just speed,he needs to use his noggin now so we shall see,French is an odd one,he doesn’t look happy out on the wing but we will see if he stays,but in Matty Peet I feel the club has a coach that can take the club on,the style of play has thankfully changed from the dirge of the last couple of seasons so let’s see what he can do once he gets more time under his belt in charge.

[Exiled Wiganer]

When looking back at the glory years, we did not go bust. Many years we made money. A rich man bought us. Saints’ board have pumped in millions and millions of pounds. Without that their golden era would never have happened. Likewise many other clubs.

Wigan did nothing wrong - we speculated to accumulate but you only need to dig out the accounts to see that - with no particularly wealthy owner - our business model was sound. We developed a brand which had value when we needed capital investment. That’s a standard way of building a business.

The book The Best Years of Our Lives has the definitive story of those years, and as a shareholder I was seeing all of the accounts in the glory years (as I am sure many others on this site did). What we pulled off - and this was Lindsay’s genius - was our own version of rugby league galacticos at a time when there was less difference between wages here and in Oz, union was amateur and rugby league was on terrestrial TV week after week.

However, it was too much for too long, not just because it could have made us financially vulnerable, but also because our monopoly of success stifled the game’s popularity elsewhere. Crowds now across SL are far better and good crowds and players are more evenly spread. From Wigan’s perspective, I doubt we will ever see dominance like it again.

[Mike]

Not a level playing field, because we wanted to be good and invested to become good... So unfair.

[saint]

Some good points - about Saints! During super league era we have have sound financial backing and there is no coincidence in that has been the backbone of our success . Totally agree with you . Wigan during the era discussed arguable set the bench mark but as someone mentioned - In Wigans case , it was a monopoly built on sand .

Would you change it ?????! Absolutely not . And in truth , I would not want you to change it because it set a president a direction, the quality of rugby league was on a upward trajectory. What Wigan or at least the idea was ground breaking and on the back of that set the tone for the future

Was it ‘ unfair’? Perhaps not the best use of language but it wasn’t equal! Hence regulation !

On the Manley game , I’m proud to say I was there . Sat on the wall next to the old tunnel . I was 11 I remember not being able to see the pitch due to smoke for the first 10 minutes . Packed to the rafters and all kicks .

I don’t look back at that period with bitterness at all. I seen some incredible moments in our games history . Offiah try against Leeds ( Alan Tate full back quoted in the week leading up that know body could beat him on the outside ! When offiah was 1-1Tate shown him the outside and Offiah glided round him with not having a hand placed on him . He could have quite easily come inside but I’m certain Offiah did it to prove a point . Arguably the finest try scored at Wembley .
91 final - still hurts more than 89 because we should have won Edwards should have walked in the fist 5mins and the first try disallowed . Elbowed viewers in the head and knocked him out .led to a unconverted try and us without a full back ! He came back on second half but wasn’t right

A bit off topic but 96 was the best final ( I’m bound to say that) I think 5 records were broken 1 highest winning score 2 highest score for a losing team 3 first hat trick in a final 4 biggest margin for a come back 26-12 half time . 5 I think the first time a lance Todd going to a loosing team player.


I’ll finish on this - Wigan set the tone from the late 80’s the game went on a upward trajectory as a result . The first 10 years of super league was certainly good for us but I feel the game was progressing. It has since declined to worrying proportions .

We are all grasping onto small elements of quality we see in players even though most would not have made the grade previously and that’s a sign of our times . Perhaps we need someone to rise again like those that made Wigan great ! I would welcome it no question .

[jaws1]

Only for the gang of four and Maurice Lindsays vision Wigan could have ended up like Bradford we were relegated .His vision changed the RL to what it is now whether it was an unfair playing field Leeds were the first team to go professional .It was up to the other clubs to come up to our standards if only the RFL embraced Maurices vision and amalgamated clubs the NRL did it look at their competition now.

[Exiled Wiganer]

I think Saint is wrong in his “Wigan’s success bad, Saints success pure”. Since the millennium, Saints have only done what they have done because they have been repeatedly bailed out, to the tune of millions of pounds over and over again. We did what we did without big money injections and big money benefactor until the end. Any club could have done what we did in the pre salary cap era - we did it best and we did it longest.

[saint]

Only for the gang of four and Maurice Lindsays vision Wigan could have ended up like Bradford we were relegated .His vision changed the RL to what it is now whether it was an unfair playing field Leeds were the first team to go professional .It was up to the other clubs to come up to our standards if only the RFL embraced Maurices vision and amalgamated clubs the NRL did it look at their competition now.

Can’t argue with that !

[saint]

I think Saint is wrong in his “Wigan’s success bad, Saints success pure”. Since the millennium, Saints have only done what they have done because they have been repeatedly bailed out, to the tune of millions of pounds over and over again. We did what we did without big money injections and big money benefactor until the end. Any club could have done what we did in the pre salary cap era - we did it best and we did it longest.

I’ve never said Wigan Bad !

The rest, I agree with .