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jaws1 wrote:

pedro wrote:they had no interest in youth?....

Lockers, Hock, Tomkins (Joel), Prescott, Hargreaves, Gilmour, Aspinwall, Brown, Wild, Robinson...bought youth in Tickle and Hodgson.

Seems Cruncher needs to get his facts right.

Yes but where are the players in bold now not playing for Wigan what Cruncher states that some of these players had to be sold on to keep the overpaid imports that we had.

That doesn't apply to them all (if any in fact) and which ones have we really missed?

Gilmour left for his own reasons not because Wigan didn't want him. Hargreaves was one of three young props and we will never keep all the young players.

As with many players who left if oyu look at the circumstances when they did you can see why many were let go. It certainly wasn't simply to fund overseas players IMO.

Dave

They werent sold on...most left some were due to limited gameplay. They got more chances than Goulding, Mossop and Ainscough did.


Wahts to say they will not move on as although Il keeps going on about youth Noble doesnt seem to have to same hymm sheet

DaveO wrote:

shaunedwardsfan club wrote:I.L does not coach or disguss tactics with players, he signs players on recomendation and his signings to date via VARIOUS sources have been spot on IMO. The only exeption being Gleesons contract which i forgot to mention. I.L said and i quote " Is not playing like he sould be doing, but is outstanding in defence" which i 100% agreed with.

Is it any coincidence that the signing of Gleeson resulted in an upturn in our form? Yes, we have yet to see the best of his attacking game, although we will need to sign a quality halfback for that to happen!

Our form picked up after the loss to Celtic when the players had another meeting pretty much the same way they went better last season after we got battered by Hudds and they had a meeting.

Coincidence?

Dave

To a large extent, yes. I'd differ very slightly on the timing of when our form picked up, and say it was about 10 minutes into the HKR game, when we were by far the worse team, and lucky to be only 10-0 down.

That's when Tim Smith picked up his injury; coincidence?

I have yet to come across anybody at Wigan that does not think IFL is not as tight as they come with money and that if they had more staff they could achieve far more. IFL being tight is not a fan view, it is a Wigan RLFC view.

The real success of Wigan RLFC is not down to IFL (Remember he appointed JL) but Hogan, Collinson etc with excellent appointments like Unsworth. The big success is off field more than on field. Indeed, that is the big difference between Wigan now and Wigan under Whelan.
Would that off field have been so great under Lydon and IFL? I think not. Hence Hogan is the key not IFL.

Wigan in the SL was not a club in the normal sense of one. So it would not be hard to improve on what went before. DW simply took the view that the cost of running Wigan RLFC was minimal and that he was happy for it to simply exist with his hand being put in his pocket as and when required. The prestige of Premiership football was always greater than SL. Clearly that is not that way to run any club. So off field Wigan RLFC became virtually non existent and indeed that may have suited Whelan in his attempt to attract more fans to Wigan Athletic. However, no one will ever know bar the man himself. We can speculate though as we always do.

The playing side? I do worry that IFL seems to want to rewrite history. He is often supported by fans. Fans I suggest watch the short documentary prior to the last game at CP when IIRC Joe Egan states that Wigan were a club that bought / signed talent rather than opting for local player and it only changed thereafter which is a KEY POINT. The big name non local players in a very successful Wigan RLFC team made youngsters living in Wigan want to emulate them and in turn play for Wigan RLFC.

The momentum in getting the best youngsters playing RL is critical. Many 'great RL players' never play the sport.
The 80 teams did exactly the same. Young boys wanted to emulate Brett Kenny, Ellery Hanley, Shaun Edwards et al N.B It does not matter to children whether a player is from Wigan or Wogga. They need to be inspired, excited and want to take up the sport. Prior to the 80’s RL was not played in many parts of Wigan. Even today, RL in Wigan owes a huge debt to amateur clubs. Forget schools, we currently have schools in Wigan not playing RL and those that do gain success from what the amateur clubs provide them with.

Currently, football is huge. One of the great things about the 80s was that football was at a low ebb. Forget that now. Football clubs are really on the money now and they are taking children younger and younger. Never forget many 'great RL players' never play the sport.

Interestingly, RL clubs / the RFL are talking about bringing players into the professional side later and later and embracing non competitive sport. Football clubs are going the opposite way as far as age goes. In Wigan every week there will be umpteen football scouts from NW clubs looking at 6 year olds and upwards. There are Wigan youngsters under the age of 11 attending scholarship type schemes at clubs throughout the NW. They seem to follow the non competitive path too but is that just a British thing? Given how unsuccessful we have been nationally across the board is it the right thing.

Wigan RLFC currently have the oldest fan profile in SL. The one positive is they have the best female fan profile in SL. Unfortunately those female fans cannot play RL for Wigan in SL.

So it is never a chicken and egg scenario in RL. RL needs stars that children want to emulate which is why old farts whining about the Warriors tag is so ridiculous and pointless.

If Wigan RL are exciting to youngsters and youngsters want to watch them and play the game then yes you get more and more young Wigan born players or British born players. We are talking primary age youngsters. A great deal of those who do go currently are 'dragged' along by us 'old farts'
Maybe there was far more meaning in what Dean Bell said re if you get the first team right, the youngsters will follow and come through.

Either / Or is not an option. It never has been. It never will be. That is one of the sad aspects of RL in Britain. You will find BARLA men who are oblivious to the fact kids knock on their clubhouse door because of Ellery Hanley, Andy Farrell and Trent Barrett and instead hate the professional game with a passion. Likewise you will find pro RL men who think that BARLA is a waste of space without acknowledging that when a Hanley, a Farrell or a Barrett captured some young boys’ imagination they then need somewhere to learn and play the sport and become the next AN Other.

Remember many 'great RL players' never play the sport.
So you are left asking does IFL understand Wigan RFL as well as he thinks or suggests. Was his statement correct. N.B He has a habit IMO of putting his foot in it and back tracks which is what happened post Forum 4. At that forum he clearly stated Wigan would follow the youth route, post forum he started to add world class non youth players.
What most fans missed at Forum 4 was IFL acknowledged that he and Noble disagree on the route being taken. Whether it inadvertently slipped out who knows but often the most telling part when IFL speaks are the quiet sections. The grandstanding pampers to a broad section of the converted and makes them happy. IFL clearly finds it hard when people do not swallow the grandstanding which was illustrated by his reaction to Derrick Taylor.

The question mark around IFL is does he mean what he says? Forum 4 he talks about the research Wigan RLFC do on overseas players and that they are only interested in the best. Sounds good to me but does it stand up to scrutiny. Wigan RLFC believes that O’Meeley’s knees are busted. 2010 will tell us. Personally, I would argue that he has not produced any form for a long period. Wigan RLFC believes Fitzgibbon is too old. 2010 will tell us.

Do Wigan’s signings under IL stand up to that mantra?

Richard Mathers like him or loathe him A Gamble
Karl Pryce like him or loathe him A Gamble
Tim Smith like him or loathe him A gamble
Piggy – Research? Anybody with an ounce of knowledge would tell you Smith and Piggy together is asking for trouble. Research? Piggy had injury issues when we signed him and was getting outed by a rookie hooker called Keating. Anybody know when Piggy peaked? 2005 last season at St George? Maybe Piggy was cheap.
Cameron Phelps like him or loathe him A Gamble Maybe he was cheap?

Martin Gleeson Research would you sign him based on research. He can play IMO but would you make him the highest paid player at Wigan in 2010. I actually think Noble wanted Gleeson and IFL was getting desperate with the team not faring very well. It does not suit fans like Cruncher but the signing of Gleeson was very similar to Lindsay and yet Cruncher mocks that approach. Gleeson was on 150K per season at Wire. IFL went to see Gleeson and agent and asked how much will it take for you to come to Wigan, 180K Gleeson says, deal done. Not bad a 20% wage increase and a 3/3.5 year contract. We cannot pay him 180K in 2009 hence why he will get so much in 2010 and why when fans says surely we have the money to sign X player(s) We don’t to my knowledge not unless we release somebody.

Do these signings match the words of IFL?

The reality and what I think IFL will not come out and say is that we do not have the cap space to speculate in the market. Wigan RLFC under IFL inherited deals that are a noose around the neck of the club. Namely, Feka and Fielden. Since then IFL has added to that burden with Gleeson but if he delivers then maybe he is not a burden. However, the cap is not a bottomless pit and you can only sign so many big names / big contracts. If those big name / contracts do not deliver then you are playing with one arm tied behind your back. It is not a fan thing to do, so most fans pretend that everything is OK. That Feka is worth what he is paid that Fielden is still a fine prop. Worse some actually know a bit about RL (Rogues for example) and still want to pretend. If IFL did not have so much cap space already allocated to props he would go out tomorrow and sign a prop. Does anybody truly think IFL thinks Fielden has been great for Wigan. IFL / Wigan fans would love Carvell. We could not afford him and we cannot afford players that will make a huge difference. So let’s not pretend. IFL should not pretend and give the converted the flannel that makes them think otherwise.

As for Crunchers assertions re Sam Tomkins. Why on earth does MH deserve praise. Sam T had no intention of going to Union. He had no intention of leaving Wigan and for that reason Wigan got him cheap re his new contract. Myler will earn far more money and is not as good a player by a long way. His defence is poor although being a right he would be a nice partner for a left like Sam. Union clubs have always been around League players. Liam Farrell was offered far more by a Union club when he signed for Wigan as a 16 year old. He wanted to play League. He wanted to play for Wigan. Those are still 2 big drawcards for young players. We are lucky in Lancashire. In Yorkshire youngsters are signed and paid more than by the Lancashire clubs because there is a genuine bidding war takes place in Yorkshire for any talent. The biggest travesty re Sam Tomkins was that he was not allowed to play left side HB alongside Trent last season. Tommy and Higham at 9. We may have reached the GF.

Should IFL be praised for Mark Flannagan? Yes we all know his girlfriend blah blah but Wigan never discussed any new deal with him that he asked Big Frank to get him a deal in Aus. He might have stayed. Why would he though? He is an intelligent young man. It’s taken how long to get a few games. What happens in 2010. Even worse, the fans, some of them that go to every academy/reserve match swallow the duty of care garbage spouted. Had Flannagan never played in the first team and left how many fans would be saying shame he is leaving. A handful because fans are by and large gullible. If you are a regular at Orrell then please tell me any difference between Farrell and Flannagan other than age. If Flannagan can handle SL then so can Farrell. Davies / Tuson? Not far off. If some fans think Davies is not big enough for prop then play him in the second row. Does anybody think they could not handle 6, 12 games across a season. Oh let me see fans are great at convincing themselves that young players have something wrong with them. Come on hands up how many Mossop apologists there were out there before he proved you all wrong at Huddersfield.

N.B I have read on RLfans that Tuson was brought into the first team because of form. Utter garbage. Mossop played the game before and was dropped because Noble told him he played too much like a prop. So he brought Tuson in. It was a travesty how Mossop was treated in the Semi and yet there are still fans who will not dare criticise Wigan RLFC. Some fans are harder on their wife/husband/children than Wigan RLFC. How odd is that.

If you are good enough you are old enough.

Wigan has had a great youth policy for years. Forget the season Wigan signed 3 juniors. Can somebody tell me where these other youngsters were? It was a bad year. Wigan RLFC believes the present U15 age group has some gems. For every player Wigan produce for their SL there will be many many more they let go. Let nobody kid you that each age group is full of SL players for Wigan. It never has been, it never will be. What did Monie used to say? 2? I keep reading names of past players. Players leave for many reasons often totally unrelated to playing. Tickle springs to mind as one of those. Sometimes competition for a position. Radlinski / Briscoe. I often thought Flannagan v Locker would go that way.

One thing about fans and maybe some coaches is their obsession with size. Backrowers do not need to be huge. They need to be fast/powerful/agile and sometimes being shorter than the lanky second rowers can be a huge advantage. Look at many NRL backrowers these days. This game is changing and if somebody did the right thing and canvassed for the interchange to be cut in half and fatigue brought back you would see better RL and more diverse player sizes / shapes.

It’s not about whether a player is from Wigan or Australia or value for money. It is about putting the best team possible within the rules and if it is Wigan RLFC, winning. We have inherent advantages over 99% of clubs. Unless we make mistakes we should win.

As it stands IFL has won nothing yet? Is he that important? I would much rather hear Hogan / Collinson speaking for longer as these are the people doing the jobs, the people qualified. I don’t even care to see IFL on the team picture. He gets to own the most famous RFL club in the world and his % of his income that he pars for that pleasure is far far less than many of you put in as a % of your income. If IFL wants to go for a pint and let fans pat him on the back great. I hope he and the fans enjoy it. As long as he delivers a Wigan RLFC team out on the pitch.

[quote="God"]With regards to our "Enforcer" prop situation, i believe this comment was taken out of context. I believe IL ment "Quality" prop forward, now in my view there are not alot of decent props around at the minute that would warrent there wage demands.

There's a whole bunch of them in the NRL. Best pick at present is Fui Fui Moi.

Cp - Are you saying that Gleeson will be paid more than Feilden in 2010? If that's true, then we could have had our pick of the Aussies, so in my book that is bad business.

That is what I am led to believe SEFC. He signed for 180L per season but that was staggered so he receives far less in 2009 but an awful lot more in 2010.

I have always been told that Wigan have a hard time justifying even more cap expenditure on props whilst Fielden and Feka account for so much.

Hock was on approx 100K but my understanding was prior to Hock's suspension we could not afford to retain Bailey. It was decided a long time ago that Bailey would not be retained but as IFL admitted at the last forum when Hockgate took place they started to back track.

All this we will make a decision about Hock in the next week in the WEP is pure nonsense too.

I spoke to St Helens chaiman when they signed Mal Maninga, and he told me that even though they paid a big contract for him, half way through the season with the increased crowds they were in profit. Now thats is class with added value.
As a business man he should know that you have to speculate to accumulate.

cpwigan wrote:I have always been told that Wigan have a hard time justifying even more cap expenditure on props whilst Fielden and Feka account for so much.

Never understood this sort of reasoning. So what if we have five props? If it is clear we need another one then we need another one. Not signing another one when the five we have are lacking the kind of prop we need is just stupid.

Dave

ddtftf wrote:I spoke to St Helens chaiman when they signed Mal Maninga, and he told me that even though they paid a big contract for him, half way through the season with the increased crowds they were in profit. Now thats is class with added value.
As a business man he should know that you have to speculate to accumulate.

I know what you mean, although if we were to sign Billy Slater, do you think that our crowds would increase enough to justify his huge wage demands? Personally, I don't think they would. Plus, there wasn't the issue of the stupid salary cap in those days. I understand the point you are trying to make though.

DaveO wrote:

cpwigan wrote:I have always been told that Wigan have a hard time justifying even more cap expenditure on props whilst Fielden and Feka account for so much.

Never understood this sort of reasoning. So what if we have five props? If it is clear we need another one then we need another one. Not signing another one when the five we have are lacking the kind of prop we need is just stupid.

Dave

i admit we do need another prop, but if we sign another without releasing one it leaves another position short of a player. who do we release to sign another prop? o`carroll, prescott, or ben davies?