Union Players

[DaveO]

IL is attacking the Junior side of RU which will damage there production line no end if he does it correctly and what i have seen of IL he does things in a methodical and almost clinical way so the RU need to get there own house in order or the RL clubs will be creaming them of there own money

I suspect this will come full circle !

Well the idea that started this thread is about senior players bot counting on the salary cap so it is different than IL going after juniors but I don't think that is a particularly bright idea anyway

Sorry but I think that it is wishful thinking to suggest we can some how scupper RU by going after its juniors. Even if all the clubs not just ours targeted junior RU players what chance of them coming anyway? The top juniors who get on scholarship programs at places like Sarries or other top clubs are not going to pass up the chance to become RU players earning mega money. We had no chance with Owen Farrell or Mick Ford's son for example and they have roots in our game.

If we ignore the likes of them and try and find 2nd string players overlooked by the RU clubs then that isn't hurting the RU clubs anyway and even it it did, all they would do is let us train them and when they score a great try at Wembley come and nick them back.

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

IL is attacking
Well the idea that started this thread is about senior players bot counting on the salary cap

That's not what my original post stated or indeed implied!

[DaveO]

IL is attacking
Well the idea that started this thread is about senior players bot counting on the salary cap

That's not what my original post stated or indeed implied!

Eh?

The post I replied to was discussing going after junior Union players and the discussion in general is about Union players being excempt from the cap so I assume you realised that it is the senior Union players I was referring to above? Or did you assume I meant Senior RL players not counting on the cap?

You said "I am told that there is a proposal, being discussed by the RFL, that will allow clubs to sign a Union player and for that player to be exempt from the salary cap."

Given only senior players count on the RL cap then you must also have been referring to senior RU players and I am sure everyone else thinks that as well.

So are we singing from the same hymn sheet or not?

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

That's not what my original post stated or indeed implied!

Eh?

The post I replied to was discussing going after junior Union players and the discussion in general is about Union players being excempt from the cap so I assume you realised that it is the senior Union players I was referring to above? Or did you assume I meant Senior RL players not counting on the cap?

You said "I am told that there is a proposal, being discussed by the RFL, that will allow clubs to sign a Union player and for that player to be exempt from the salary cap."

Given only senior players count on the RL cap then you must also have been referring to senior RU players and I am sure everyone else thinks that as well.

So are we singing from the same hymn sheet or not?

No. It could be a junior player in RU which an RL team wish to pay a sizeable salary to in order to entice the player to RL. Under normal circumstances the player may count on the salary cap but under this proposed arrangement he would be exempt. Perhaps a good example would be if Wigan spotted a young Chris Ashton playing in Rugby Union. Obviously, there would be nothing stopping a club signing an international RU player as the same exemption would apply.

[RealistRL]

It's 2011 and we are talking as if the game is a start-up like UK based American Football.

We are running around like headless chickens with hair brain ideas, failed expansion here, failed tournament there, laughable international game, the list goes on.

In the best part of a decade the Union game has achieved more than the boffins at RFL HQ in 100 years.

The battle has been lost, once the Union money men and media companies got together, it was the end for top level professional League in this country. It's an unstoppable force, the international game is a money making machince while the club game is getting bigger by the season and extending across Europe.

10 years from now I'm convinced there'll be fewer professional league teams than today, the RFL will preach about how we are a game living within our means while Union clubs become powerhouses and the top players become millionaires.

Sorry to put a downer on things but I'm sick to the back teeth reading how the RFL will do this or that more than a decade after Super League formed. Branson's involvement with the Broncos was the opportunity this game had to spread it's wings nationwide, to lose that guy from the sport was disastrous.

Us fans have a part to play too, we continue to brush away the significance of our top talent to going to Union with a belief these superstars are products of a production line. Well, I don't see our game producing talent of the quality of Farrel, Edwards or Robinson anymore, tell a lie, there is one, and guess where he's going in 12 months?

It's time for Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds to take things into their own hands and consider were they want to be 10 years from now. This has to include the so far unthinkable, switching to Union. Before you throw your toys out of the pram I'll say here and now I want this club to be competing in the same sport with the likes of Edwards, Farrell, Robinson and the Tomkins brothers, rather than being a plucky underdog who's existence consists of playing in a second rate Super League and being a feeder club for the other code.

[yoda warrior]

Rugby league is calling out for props and those with the size and fitness levels are snapped up by union. Wire win on the likes of morley, carvel and westwood. Who have we got of that ilk. We need bulk and athleticicm. So do most rl clubs. Union is where they are at. When you look at men mountains like Feka and then find he is small to middling as a prop in union you get the picture. Crabtree type props with a bit of grunt. Look at Ashton now compared to what we let go. Centres we have, halves we have and they control our game. No instant impact from there. But props are a different breed and they are worth persuing. Yes we should be allowed to buy them in but not at the expense of what we already have.
You cannot hold back the lions to give the Christians a chance. The fans want gladiators who are all they can be. The team is only as strong as its weakest players, NRL have realised the problem and upped the cap so better teams can be put together why cant we?? Jim

Most union props i've seen are short and rather fat and wouldn't last 5 minutes in an RL game. Their second rowers and back rows need to be very tall for the line outs and again most aren't physically suited to league. There are plenty of back rows there that could cope but most wouldn't, and we aren't short of back rows anyway.

[DaveO]

No. It could be a junior player in RU which an RL team wish to pay a sizeable salary to in order to entice the player to RL.

And junior players do not count on the cap unless they play a qualifying game of SL.

Under normal circumstances the player may count on the salary cap but under this proposed arrangement he would be exempt. Perhaps a good example would be if Wigan spotted a young Chris Ashton playing in Rugby Union. Obviously, there would be nothing stopping a club signing an international RU player as the same exemption would apply.

Chris Ashton was a member of the senior squad at Wigan. When he went to RU he went to play in their first team squad. His wages already counted on our cap so an equivalent player going the other way would be a senior RU player not a junior coming to Wigan. If you truly mean a junior player then they won't be playing first team games so won't count in the cap.

It boils down to this. If the RU player signed went into the first team squad to play games he would be a member of the first team squad and without the salary cap exemption he would count on the cap. If he is a junior and not a member of the first team squad so not playing SL games his wages do not count anyway. There is already no restriction on what yo can pay junior players.

So the only way this whole idea takes an RU player off the cap is if he is a member of the senior squad and is playing SL games for the first team.

[weststand-rich]

It's 2011 and we are talking as if the game is a start-up like UK based American Football.

We are running around like headless chickens with hair brain ideas, failed expansion here, failed tournament there, laughable international game, the list goes on.

In the best part of a decade the Union game has achieved more than the boffins at RFL HQ in 100 years.

The battle has been lost, once the Union money men and media companies got together, it was the end for top level professional League in this country. It's an unstoppable force, the international game is a money making machince while the club game is getting bigger by the season and extending across Europe.

10 years from now I'm convinced there'll be fewer professional league teams than today, the RFL will preach about how we are a game living within our means while Union clubs become powerhouses and the top players become millionaires.

Sorry to put a downer on things but I'm sick to the back teeth reading how the RFL will do this or that more than a decade after Super League formed. Branson's involvement with the Broncos was the opportunity this game had to spread it's wings nationwide, to lose that guy from the sport was disastrous.

Us fans have a part to play too, we continue to brush away the significance of our top talent to going to Union with a belief these superstars are products of a production line. Well, I don't see our game producing talent of the quality of Farrel, Edwards or Robinson anymore, tell a lie, there is one, and guess where he's going in 12 months?

It's time for Wigan, Saints, Warrington and Leeds to take things into their own hands and consider were they want to be 10 years from now. This has to include the so far unthinkable, switching to Union. Before you throw your toys out of the pram I'll say here and now I want this club to be competing in the same sport with the likes of Edwards, Farrell, Robinson and the Tomkins brothers, rather than being a plucky underdog who's existence consists of playing in a second rate Super League and being a feeder club for the other code.

An interesting , if slightly extreme post.

Rugby league and union fan bases don't seem to overlap and exist as effectively mutually exclusive entitites. Suggesting that Wigan become a Union team would be a disaster from the off. The gate would implode and I'm not sure where the draw would come from apart from a historically irrelevelany rugby brand link.

Whatever Union does or doesn't do, it's irrelevant in a sense to what RL does. I can't shake the feeling that the superleague has stagnated somewhat in terms of both game quality and club development despite the franchise system. Adopting business model practises is fine, but all it lead to is a box ticking exercise without the real commitment to improve.

My feeling is we need to focus on quality player development and retainment without the need to raid Union. That means raising the salary cap - even if paying the salary cap remains an aspiration for perhaps half of the clubs.

[highland convert]

While sky sport have the rights and little and large has the mikes Sky is driving the bus towards the precipice. When the beautiful game is being overshadowed by endless twadle league is going nowhere fars. The faster it falls the faster the players will bail out, Simple, we have NRL coaches players what about some nrl commentators. The ones who commentate on the game. Not someone who will continue to analise a forward pass ten minutes after it happened while they forget to watch what is happening. How many times do we need to "Get the message out". The game has been taken down to its lowest common denominators and if they don't go the game will die. The players wages are from a stagnant pool. We need fresh water in there, That means money has to be injected. Free the market. bin the cap. Devil take the hindmost. Invester only invest in live products. resurect leageue or it is finished as a sport. Jim

[DaveO]

The players wages are from a stagnant pool. We need fresh water in there, That means money has to be injected. Free the market. bin the cap.

There is a very, very easy way to increase players wages without scrapping the cap or requiring clubs to pay higher wages that they have not got.

The game needs to reform the rules to make what Bradford did a few years ago with Harris allowable.

They got him sponsored by a local company and they were basically paying his wages (or at least a large chunk of them) not the club. Unfortunately for Bradford this company also took an advert out either in the match day program or round the ground. That meant they were as far as the RFL concerned associated with the club and the salary cap rules say that any payments to the player from anyone deemed to be associated with the club count on the cap. So when this came to light and Harris wages were added to those already being paid by Bradford they went over the salary cap.

If they removed this restriction players could seek sponsors, look for product endorsement deals, sell their own image rights and so on to boost their income.

It would not cost the club a penny so there is no argument against it saying the clubs could not afford it. The salary cap would remain the same but a players salary cap value would be what he was paid by the club not what he earned in total from all sources of income.

This will never happen though as the smaller clubs would veto such a change despite the fact I reckon even players at Cas could boost there income in this way. Not as much as the stars of the game like Sam T but sooner or later the game has just to accept it can't carry on paying the players LESS each year which is exactly what they are doing with no increases in the salary cap and inflation at 5.2%