I thought 12 men = loss

[sheepsteeth]

Saints won because their coach was pragmatic and made the decision that given their injuries they would have to play in a more conservative manner than he liked but one that maximised the efforts of the player he had at his disposal. It is the hallmark of excellent coaching. The decision was made several games before the GF.

Again our game plan suited the players we had at our disposal.

Are you suggesting Shaun wane should have orchestrated a game plan based on the possibility of Ben flower being sent off after 3 minutes?

If not then. What's your point?

[cpwigan]

Saints won because their coach was pragmatic and made the decision that given their injuries they would have to play in a more conservative manner than he liked but one that maximised the efforts of the player he had at his disposal. It is the hallmark of excellent coaching. The decision was made several games before the GF.

Again our game plan suited the players we had at our disposal.

Are you suggesting Shaun wane should have orchestrated a game plan based on the possibility of Ben flower being sent off after 3 minutes?

If not then. What's your point?

No although you can ammend instruction during games.

No, the Waneball Game Plan is very high risk and energy sapping. Wigan do not have the players capable of implementing such a strategy. Widnes in the Offiah era were best suited to pursuing such a game plan and even with Sorensen/Grima punching holes out wide/slipping passes and super fast finishing outside backs it failed far too much because it is essentially high risk. Great to watch when it comes off but unreliable and the reason why we never faced Widnes at their best during our in a row.

Should the game plan not take account of the opposition wek by week? Saints had shown their hand already yet our GF game plan showed no recognition that Saints were playing a different game plan.

Wigan under WaneBall invariably beat themselves. Opponents who simple complete, kick well and tackle hard are a nightmare for such a high risk strategy like Wane ball.

[cpwigan]

The most staunch advocate of Waneball is Gary Schofield, does that not tell you something!

[sheepsteeth]

Saints won because their coach was pragmatic and made the decision that given their injuries they would have to play in a more conservative manner than he liked but one that maximised the efforts of the player he had at his disposal. It is the hallmark of excellent coaching. The decision was made several games before the GF.

Again our game plan suited the players we had at our disposal.

Are you suggesting Shaun wane should have orchestrated a game plan based on the possibility of Ben flower being sent off after 3 minutes?

If not then. What's your point?

No although you can ammend instruction during games.

No, the Waneball Game Plan is very high risk and energy sapping. Wigan do not have the players capable of implementing such a strategy. Widnes in the Offiah era were best suited to pursuing such a game plan and even with Sorensen/Grima punching holes out wide/slipping passes and super fast finishing outside backs it failed far too much because it is essentially high risk. Great to watch when it comes off but unreliable and the reason why we never faced Widnes at their best during our in a row.

Should the game plan not take account of the opposition wek by week? Saints had shown their hand already yet our GF game plan showed no recognition that Saints were playing a different game plan.

Wigan under WaneBall invariably beat themselves. Opponents who simple complete, kick well and tackle hard are a nightmare for such a high risk strategy like Wane ball.

Does 2013 not show that wane ball works?
Would wane ball not have worked if flower hadn't been sent off?

Invariably beat themselves? Results would surely dispute that.

[Mike]

I do think our completion rate and our application of pressure is a problem with our current style.

But rather than being 100% right or 100% wrong, I consider it to be more balance of pros and cons to any set of tactics. Yes, completion is potentially a problem, but attacking success anywhere in the opponents half is probably higher. IMO if the tactics were 100% wrong we'd never be anywhere close to winning anything - and thats an argument that is largely disregarded by those who see it differently.

We did show last season that in bad weather we were capable of playing a modified game plan. I've seen some evidence (albeit on the TV) that we have modified our plan in our own half to more standard out-sets. We've also clearly worked on adding offloads to our style too. One is conservative, one ambitious.

[sheepsteeth]

CP what should we be doing to make us better? Who is the coach we need to make us better?

Would we have won the GF without the sending off?

If we have won trophies in spite of SW what have the players done to make things happen themselves?

In the face of a big turnover of players what could have been done to make us more cohesive and successful?

Do teams in a salary capped sport win doubles with a bad coach?

If other coaches in super league are better why haven't they won a double?

[Panchitta Marra]

Enforcer is in a player and he does not have it in him.

Best enforcer in SL is Micky Mac and tbh he just looks the part. Faz never will be.

I think we only have one player capable of being an enforcer Gimble, and that's Micky Mac as you say.
Liam Farrell doesn't know how to spell the word never mind play it and Joel runs behind the pack when things kick off serious style.
The Stains derby games will be interesting to see and I think we will a poor second best when it comes to a scrap.

[cpwigan]

CP what should we be doing to make us better? Who is the coach we need to make us better?

Would we have won the GF without the sending off?

If we have won trophies in spite of SW what have the players done to make things happen themselves?

In the face of a big turnover of players what could have been done to make us more cohesive and successful?

Do teams in a salary capped sport win doubles with a bad coach?

If other coaches in super league are better why haven't they won a double?

There are many coaches who IMO would utilise more effective tactics. We had one prior to Wane.

Could we have lost to Saints in the GF with 13 men Yes just as we could have won the GF with 12 men. It would be insulting to Saints to simply argue if Wigan had 13 men we would have beaten St Helens. The most recent game v Saints prior to the GF we lost 13v13. Saints lost a key player too in the GF, Saints had several key players out long term too BUT their coach and the players found a way to win. I personally think had we recognised how Saints were playing at the time and adopted a Madge style game plan then we would have been more like to have won and more likely to win by a large margin. What do you think?

The turnover of players is a feature of sport. All clubs face it. No club has better playing resources in reserve though to deal with change. IIRC, clubs have 5 year plans of player succession etc as stated by Rads.

If you do not believe players can win competitions matches in spite of their coach then there is nothing I can do other than suggest you look at Bill Ashurst coaching Wigan in the 'absence' of Coach Alex Murphy or suggest you look at the incredibly successful Wigan coach John Dorahay. The best example you will ever see of players winning a game despite the coach was the CC comeback v Hull FC

I will not insult you by answering your last question as I think the answer is obvious and you know it.

[Mike]

I don't get it. How can the players be winning despite the coach if they are execuing his game plan to such an extent that it riles you excessively?

Your example was one where the players were ignoring the coach.

[cpwigan]

I don't get it. How can the players be winning despite the coach if they are execuing his game plan to such an extent that it riles you excessively?

Your example was one where the players were ignoring the coach.

Yes it was or alternatively the players can be of a standard that they win games irrespective of the game plan, albeit you cannot do that week in week out because the games whether a victory or a defeat are energy sapping and result in a great possibility of injuries. Conversely, if the coach is the best in the world, he still needs a certain standard of player.

In our case we have the players and should be dominating SL as we should have been doing for the last 3 seasons. So, we are capable of winning games despite the coach but to do that game after game is never going to happen.