Re: Woefull Wane

[Wigan_forever1985]

This is my opinion and it's based on nothing other than what I see, I don't know anyone at the club or speak to players etc so I could be well off the mark.

to compare madge and wane

I feel like madge was respected by the players, I feel like he engaged them he set the standards and got them to buy into those standards. I reckon he could be really forceful but knew when to play that card, he didn't have favourites and he treated all players equal the message was simple, work hard and you will be rewarded. He connected with the players, I read about how he throws dinner parties for their wives and gfs to thank them for their support as he knows how hard he pushes the players. He is the type of coach that the players play for because they don't want to disappoint him

Wane I fell coaches from fear, he is all about punishment for wrong than reinforcing the good. I don't feel like he thinks he needs to connect with the players he is there to tell them what to do and they should do it or else!. In the environment players start to play for fear of getting things wrong and to avoid the scolding for that. I think that was probably why he was such a good junior coach, at young ages before they really know how to respect properly the players would of needed a firm hand.

I remember seeing footage of the dressing room at a challenge cup win with madge and he had been being interviewed and the players had not started to celebrate because he wasn't there and then you saw him walk in take his place on the drum and he bashed on the drum while the players sung their hearts out. I remember thinking I hadn't seena wigan team bound that strong in a long time, they all looked like they wanted to play for eachother everyone was on the same page.

[cpwigan]

I don't think Shaun is woeful, however the team's performances have been and it's his responsibility to put it right. The "Worst night of his coaching career" says all we need to know on his team's performance at Cas.
I'll bet he didn't get too much sleep Friday night!

What he has to do IMO is get the team to regain control of games. Maguire transformed the way the team played and this showed in defence especially.

When the opposition were in possession we put in 3-4 man tackles, not to big hit or smash them but to gain control.
The ball carrier was tackled with two/three men holding him while one man clamped the ball. They then held him up off the ground and turn him until it was known he'd land on his back.
The referee can't call "held" until the ball carrying arm hits the ground or his progress is halted.
Wigan players used to allow the ball carrier to move forward and sacrifice a yard or two so they were in control and land him on his back and then were in control of the tackle and the ptb. Inadvertantly, or purposefully, they were also in control of the referee as he couldn't call "held" as the ball carrying arm hadn't hit the floor and the man was still moving forward no matter how slowly or short distance.

Maguire was in charge but Shaun was asst coach.
I do think if we are to regain form then this method has to be re-introduced. Shouldn't be too difficult as Shaun knows it as do some of our forwards who were around in 2010/11 such as Mossop, Faz, Lockers, MicMac and Joel.

How often did we hear tv and radio commentators say "Wigan are strangling the life out of "N"s attack by their tackling". That has disappeared and needs to be re-introduced.

We probably have the fastest backs in SL who are being exposed and made to look poor. Our halves haven't a prayer when the forwards are not in control and dominating the opposition.

Shaun has said it's going to be a tough week. Probably, but they have to get it right off the training field as much as on it if this sort of form is to be turned around.
As I said, I don't believe Shaun is woeful, this though is the biggest test he's had by far as coach of the first team. I hope he gets it right for all our sakes especially his own!

Ted the problem is Wane is too pig headed and does not have the learning curve to move Wigan forward. Yes, Wane did have the perfect opportunity to learn what Madge was THEN coaching Wigan RLFC to do BUT from his appointment it was we did not do that well under the previous coach I can do better. Wane took part of the Madge philosophy but bastardised it too the point it is now a pale shadow on even what it was then. Madge never went lateral so much come what may irrespective of the speed of a POTB in our own 30. Wane copied the 2nd man plays that Madge left and was then UNABLE to take it forward / develop it further. Souths / Madge did / have because Madge is an intelligent RL man who thinks for himself. Wane was at the back of the class when RL intelligence was being given.

[phild1]

The Hull game is a 'must win' game IMO.
I can't even think about a display as dire as the one v Cas.

phild=not much rugby coming from the Wigan camp,a player can have a off day but the whole squad a woeful time ahead I think.

[menpond]

What happens if we end up say 7th in the league. It will become more apparent that Wane is not good enough. No craft,care or thought.eg when MB was given a second year,incredible, surely the size of 2 key players, in that position eg Charnley and Burgess comes into it?No consideration of the size of the top 17.Same with Gildart being lined up for a game,and Sutton.Never will be successful in a top RL team,that excludes Wigan,these days. Wane has blind spots. We are a laughing stock.

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

Waneball is great when it works but it fials FAR MORE than it works or will ever work.

And they've all sussed it out!

APART FROM WANE HIMSELF :eusa4:

Graham Lowe use to have a saying 'when you are cruising you are loosing'. If you stand still in sport then you will be left behind, that is exactly what has happened in my view.

[cpwigan]

And they've all sussed it out!

APART FROM WANE HIMSELF :eusa4:

Graham Lowe use to have a saying 'when you are cruising you are loosing'. If you stand still in sport then you will be left behind, that is exactly what has happened in my view.

Sadly I am not sure Wane knows how to move forward. When you listen to NRL commentary, everything about Waneball is deemed a no no.

[Wiganer Ted]

CPW, from what I understand you to mean by "Waneball" is passing wide out early in the set and using too much energy.
Is this right?

I've usually looked at it as the way of getting off your own line when going up the middle is met by an army of tacklers.
I can understand why because as I see it, when coming off your own line the tacklers go back the ten but then start off early. They tackle the first receiver almost as soon as he gets the ball, the refs rarely penalise for offside.
Both Maguire and Wane like our big backs to drive the ball up the middle, Gelling does it as does Sarginson and before him Thornley, Josh is always there. Previously Pat Richards always took the ball up and often twice in a set. The alternative is to go wide and I always thought the word for that came from on the field rather than a coaches instruction.
For instance if a player were at first receiver and Lockers shouts go wide, insticively you would. Same if the call came from Greeny. This is where now we are missing that leadership as well as many other areas.
I've seen teams often fail to make the 30 up the middle due to tacklers going early, so going wide to me has made sense as we usually get over the 40 by doing it.

CPW, I'm not saying you are wrong it's just the way I've seen it used. Yes of course it will use energy but if our end of set kick is from the 40 by going wide rather than just outside the 20 from up the middle then I've reckoned it's been worth it.

As I said in an earlier reply I think we are lacking control in the tackle.
A team is in control when in possession with Maguire we were in control then and when the tackling too. The control whilst tackling has now largly gone, needs to be reinstated and soon.

[cpwigan]

CPW, from what I understand you to mean by "Waneball" is passing wide out early in the set and using too much energy.
Is this right?

I've usually looked at it as the way of getting off your own line when going up the middle is met by an army of tacklers.
I can understand why because as I see it, when coming off your own line the tacklers go back the ten but then start off early. They tackle the first receiver almost as soon as he gets the ball, the refs rarely penalise for offside.
Both Maguire and Wane like our big backs to drive the ball up the middle, Gelling does it as does Sarginson and before him Thornley, Josh is always there. Previously Pat Richards always took the ball up and often twice in a set. The alternative is to go wide and I always thought the word for that came from on the field rather than a coaches instruction.
For instance if a player were at first receiver and Lockers shouts go wide, insticively you would. Same if the call came from Greeny. This is where now we are missing that leadership as well as many other areas.
I've seen teams often fail to make the 30 up the middle due to tacklers going early, so going wide to me has made sense as we usually get over the 40 by doing it.

CPW, I'm not saying you are wrong it's just the way I've seen it used. Yes of course it will use energy but if our end of set kick is from the 40 by going wide rather than just outside the 20 from up the middle then I've reckoned it's been worth it.

As I said in an earlier reply I think we are lacking control in the tackle.
A team is in control when in possession with Maguire we were in control then and when the tackling too. The control whilst tackling has now largly gone, needs to be reinstated and soon.

Ted there is nothing wrong with going wide even in your own red zone if is was a shock to the opposition. It can then work very well. The Wane philosophy for me; Waneball whatever is to spread the ball laterally from wherever and whenever irrespective of what is happening in the game. The POTB is neglected with player fanned out wide from the first tackle of a set. Just watching the highlights v Cas some of the new forwards expect to be charging hard at the POTB and are confused as they seem to appear in the wrong position, sometime even blocking the lateral shifts etc. The irony is we often criticised Australian / NRL RL as too robotic and regimented but Waneball is even worse as the players regardless of what is happening around them and thinking for themselves go through the same tired plays. EVERY club now has access to programmes / videos mapping teams patterns and if we are the most predictable then it becomes easy for the opposition. I think we have several forwards that would enjoy the hard yard battle.

The downside to playing lateral wide shifts is that you run the risk of more mistakes, your players exercise energy BUT the 'middles' as coaches like to call them now from the opposition are not working hard enough in defence so they remain fresh when they get the ball back. From our own point of view if we went forward first got a quick POTB then moving it wide becomes more successful, then our last tackle kicks become better because our kickers have time and room. Better field position accordingly makes defending easier and attack harder for the opposition.

The situation worsens and we struggle for any length of time to gain control, fatigue sets in (people keep saying our players look unfit, THEY ARE NOT but if a great marathon runner ran 2 marathons in the same day he would look unfit by the early to mid stages of the 2nd marathon NO MATTER how good he/she is. Fatigue exacerbates the mistake rate and it becomes a vicious circle.

The defence is somewhat bewildering. Versus Castleford our players resembled amateurs in terms of tackle technique. We did not win the first contact, the timing/teamwork of the supporting tacklers was off and getting 4 players into a tackle seems to never happen anymore.

To me there is no respect / consideration given to making decisions based on the context of the game at a given point, what has been happening in the previous 2/3 or even 4 sets / last 5-10 minutes. Thinking rather than following a failed game plan has become none existant. When do you see Wigan kick before the last anymore? why does Mac no longer kick from the POTB as he started to do / develop in the past?

To me 'Waneball' is illogical RL, dumb RL. A template was left at Wigan and the current coach thought he could do better and rewrote it to the point he made it far worse.

If you listed to NRL experts everything about 'Waneball' is wrong. Worse I watched Souths in RD1 and there game plan has moved on and is nothing like it was at Wigan under Madge other than the approach out of the redzone, other than the fantastic completion rate. The attack is so clever; no longer always left and right playmakers, playmakers combining as in the old days, run arounds from the hooker at the POTB but even better playing from the centre of the pitch not trying to beat teams on the outside by shifting play from one touchline to the othert. A fantastic strategy v the Bronocos that came to light, Madge / Souths now exploit modern defences where everybody is an L1 L2 L3 or an R1 R2 or R3 etc. Souths position themselves to target a 3 or 4 man defence down one side whereby they deliberately run at one of those defenders to make him make the tackle, lock him into the POTB which means they then went down that very same 3 or 4 man line that was more disorganised with a player now out of the line stood at the POTB. It was brilliant yet so simple and yet clever. Can you see Wane being so clever?

Likewise Rd1 South ran a brilliant 2nd man play for a try. You'd think just like Wigan do / did but it was perfect and so far removed from what Wigan are now stuck with under Wane. The commentators talked about how difficult it is too simply try to create overlaps out wide for tries etc whereas the Souths try had halfbacks / genuine middle runners that the ball can / will go to at times, running straight, holding the defensive line to then create gaps even before the winger might become an option.

Waneball is dumb RL and when you see good RL it makes it so infuriating. I honestly do not think Wane is 'smart' enough to be a great coach at the highest level. Maybe Academy RL or assistant (which he hated) are his ideal positions.

[Top Cat]

Leeds went through a bad patch not long ago, every team does at some stage , I am sure things will turn around.

[cpwigan]

Ted I cannot recall the thread where you mentioned penalties etc. If you command field position and possession IMO the penalty count invariably goes your way.

I cannot fathom the rotating captains whilst Lockers is out. Surely appoint 1 and make that player VC when Lockers returns. It was not a great captains example by Farrell as he was penalised twice IIRC for dissent / holding down.