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jao 711 wrote:

God wrote:So we have had the drama of the playing staff.... Bateman, both Tomkins brothers, Williams and Sutton either rumoured to he going or actually gone and then the debacle of backroom staff SW gone, Bitcon rumoured to be going and now Matty Peet, both very respected coaches/backroom staff. Who’s next? Chris Brooks?....Which leaves the question....

What the bloody hell is going on at the club? Rumours flying around about who will be the new head coach, onfield faliure, Lenegan looking to sell, as a Wigan fan I’ve never been so down hearted as to which direction this club is going, it’s depressing to the point of discontent. God knows what the remaining players are feeling.

There’s no feel good factor on or off the pitch and it’s a massive concern.

. I have half expected Bitcon to end up in Scotland but the rumour I heard was that Winder was on his way

Find that hard to believe. Why leave voluntarily when if the new coach comes in you could go with a notice and compulsory redundancy payment.
Now when the new ciach comes in things might change?

DaveO wrote:

morley pie eater wrote:"Cheer up" they said, "things could be worse." So I cheered up and, sure enough, things got worse.

Is it a case of "be careful what you wish for - you might get it?

All those who've been wanting Wane to go, for years in some cases, are getting their wish. Guess who'll be complaining within half a season of his replacement starting?

Well if his replacement was rubbish I am sure we will all be complaining. No idea what that has to do with recognising Wane needs to go though. I'd hope a new coach who turned out rubbish would be sacked.

I doubt he would be. A definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome and given the length of time IL perisited with Noble and Wane's "no plan B" coaching (the pair of them were/are stuck in a tactical rut) we have looked pretty insane in two periods since IL took over.

I was only thinking the other day it was far more fun and the club was more successful when it had a reputation for sacking coaches.

I didn't agree with all of the sackings myself but how we were then, being quick to get rid compared to hanging on now, has proved to me keeping a coach past his sell by date does not work. The old move 'em on after three seasons adage seems to be about right.

IL seems to have a view it's only fair to give coaches a fair crack of the whip but I think it's obvious most fans take a different view. When the shine has worn off and things look stagnant the fans want an instant fix. Not another season in charge for the coach in the hope their "insanity" is cured.

Dave, your reply is a fair summary of how you feel, and I accept your pov. Where I differ is right at the root of your explanation - that IL's reign has been "insane".

The way I see it is that Leneghan has stabilised the club. We can no longer dominate as we did in the 80s and 90s, largely because of the salary cap.

To get a neutral view, ask fair-minded fans of other teams "Which club's are reasonably well-equipped and successful in the salary cap era?" I'd suggest Wigan would be on a short list of maybe 3 to 5 clubs in most people's opinion.

Am I saying things couldn't have been done better? Of course not. But dealing with the realities of running a successful/top club, we've done better than most and as well as any *in my opinion*.

From this baseline, things look very different to me than they do to you.

morley pie eater wrote:

DaveO wrote:

morley pie eater wrote:"Cheer up" they said, "things could be worse." So I cheered up and, sure enough, things got worse.

Is it a case of "be careful what you wish for - you might get it?

All those who've been wanting Wane to go, for years in some cases, are getting their wish. Guess who'll be complaining within half a season of his replacement starting?

Well if his replacement was rubbish I am sure we will all be complaining. No idea what that has to do with recognising Wane needs to go though. I'd hope a new coach who turned out rubbish would be sacked.

I doubt he would be. A definition of insanity is repeating the same thing and expecting a different outcome and given the length of time IL perisited with Noble and Wane's "no plan B" coaching (the pair of them were/are stuck in a tactical rut) we have looked pretty insane in two periods since IL took over.

I was only thinking the other day it was far more fun and the club was more successful when it had a reputation for sacking coaches.

I didn't agree with all of the sackings myself but how we were then, being quick to get rid compared to hanging on now, has proved to me keeping a coach past his sell by date does not work. The old move 'em on after three seasons adage seems to be about right.

IL seems to have a view it's only fair to give coaches a fair crack of the whip but I think it's obvious most fans take a different view. When the shine has worn off and things look stagnant the fans want an instant fix. Not another season in charge for the coach in the hope their "insanity" is cured.

Dave, your reply is a fair summary of how you feel, and I accept your pov. Where I differ is right at the root of your explanation - that IL's reign has been "insane".

The way I see it is that Leneghan has stabilised the club. We can no longer dominate as we did in the 80s and 90s, largely because of the salary cap.

To get a neutral view, ask fair-minded fans of other teams "Which club's are reasonably well-equipped and successful in the salary cap era?" I'd suggest Wigan would be on a short list of maybe 3 to 5 clubs in most people's opinion.

Am I saying things couldn't have been done better? Of course not. But dealing with the realities of running a successful/top club, we've done better than most and as well as any *in my opinion*.

From this baseline, things look very different to me than they do to you.

"Insane" is just me being a bit colourful to make a point that in my opinion we have persisted doing the wrong thing with two coaches under the IL era for too long.

It also dawned on me the other day when thinking about this that when IL did take over, Wigan was getting a lot of flak for being a "sacking club" when it came to coaches but with hindsight my reaction is "so what?".

I don't think it has got anything to do with the 80's or 90's and not having a salary cap then that IL has to do things differently now either. If anything the salary cap era we are in now makes it imperative you maximise everything you can that isn't subject to the salary cap. Making sure you have the best coach is one thing you can do without incurring the wrath of the salary cap auditor.

I get it that the clubs reputation was not good when he took over, what with salary cap breaches (whether you agree we broke the rules or not) and a poor reputation following Dave Whelan around but they are long gone. There is no need in my opinion to be hanging onto underperforming coaches anymore as some sort of PR exercise.

A return to being impatient for coaches to deliver is long overdue.

I am also not sure I agree with Wigan being well equipped in the salary cap era. When we were under DW we may have been making a huge loss for all I know but he just bankrolled it. IL can't do that and even with the Sky money paying all the salary cap players except marquees the club made a financial loss last year. The purse strings seem tight to say the least despite a bigger subsidy from Sky than under the previous regime.

ian.birchall wrote:

jao 711 wrote:

God wrote:So we have had the drama of the playing staff.... Bateman, both Tomkins brothers, Williams and Sutton either rumoured to he going or actually gone and then the debacle of backroom staff SW gone, Bitcon rumoured to be going and now Matty Peet, both very respected coaches/backroom staff. Who’s next? Chris Brooks?....Which leaves the question....

What the bloody hell is going on at the club? Rumours flying around about who will be the new head coach, onfield faliure, Lenegan looking to sell, as a Wigan fan I’ve never been so down hearted as to which direction this club is going, it’s depressing to the point of discontent. God knows what the remaining players are feeling.

There’s no feel good factor on or off the pitch and it’s a massive concern.

. I have half expected Bitcon to end up in Scotland but the rumour I heard was that Winder was on his way

Find that hard to believe. Why leave voluntarily when if the new coach comes in you could go with a notice and compulsory redundancy payment.
Now when the new ciach comes in things might change?

He might already have agreed terms with Wigan.

i used to watch bramley when i was a kid now im a wigan fan for 55 years

DaveO:

"Well-equipped" must have been spell-checked! I think I meant well-run!

I'd say Warrington, Saints, possibly Cas, possibly Hull and, if you're very forgiving maybe Leeds, are the only teams that any sort of consensus would say have been run well (on and off the field). None of them stand out as clearly better than us - you could say Saints at the moment but that overlooks the shambles under KC.

My mention of salary cap was not particularly about it affecting recruitment, but that running a club under SC is different than it was previously, like when Uncle Mo was the man.

As I said, I'm not defending everything Leneghan has done - I'm sure he knows he has made mistakes and has probably learned as he's gone along. But in terms of achievement/trophies, or youth development, of innovative ideas,or whatever other category you'd judge him by or use to compare Wigan to other teams, we have more than held our own.

Now, a discussion of what we could have done better, or how who can improve in the next few years is fair enough. But I think your provocative use of "insane" and the way your postsoften come across is more akin to Private Fraser: "Doomed, we're all doomed!"

morley pie eater wrote:DaveO:

"Well-equipped" must have been spell-checked! I think I meant well-run!

I'd say Warrington, Saints, possibly Cas, possibly Hull and, if you're very forgiving maybe Leeds, are the only teams that any sort of consensus would say have been run well (on and off the field). None of them stand out as clearly better than us - you could say Saints at the moment but that overlooks the shambles under KC.

My mention of salary cap was not particularly about it affecting recruitment, but that running a club under SC is different than it was previously, like when Uncle Mo was the man.

As I said, I'm not defending everything Leneghan has done - I'm sure he knows he has made mistakes and has probably learned as he's gone along. But in terms of achievement/trophies, or youth development, of innovative ideas,or whatever other category you'd judge him by or use to compare Wigan to other teams, we have more than held our own.

Now, a discussion of what we could have done better, or how who can improve in the next few years is fair enough. But I think your provocative use of "insane" and the way your postsoften come across is more akin to Private Fraser: "Doomed, we're all doomed!"

My colourful use of insane was just so I could use the quote that says if you keep doing the same thing and expect a different result you are insane. If you want to take that as me using the word literally that is up to you but I am telling you that would not be correct.

I think it is obviously that what I mean by this is that we have stuck with two coaches who were not delivering what the fans want for to long (despite in Wane's case this including trophies).

As to it being different running a club in the sc era, yes it is but in one sense it is easier. Sky play SL clubs enough to fund the entire 25 man salary capped squad.

The fact this means neither Wigan nor anyone else can go and just buy top players (people seem to forget Widnes and Leeds also broke the bank back in the day) means to get an advantage you need to maximise other aspects of the club. Such as as I said getting the best coach(es) in.

Even talk of how well Wigan does producing players is getting rather boring. We still end up signing plenty from outside the club (12 of the 19 this week were signings) and few of those we do produce (as you might expect) turn out to be as good as Sam T was when they hit the first team.

Yes all SL clubs should be doing it but it does not put bums on seats when another kid makes a debut and plays 10 minutes if lucky and is anonymous.