Video Ref

[robjoenz]

jimofwigan posted:
I keep getting told how difficult it is to be a video ref. I 'm sure it can be. But how difficult is it to simply say what you see. The penalty Try ??? What penalty try? only a few weeks before Pat Richards was told clearly on national telivision by the big head of refs Stuart Cummins it was his responsibility to hold on to the ball in those tight tackle situations.

A cynical person who didn't believe in conspiracy theories might think that the video referees are trying to look for something so hard that they look past the obvious.

[DaveO]

Flash posted:
As a matter of interest I think the original decision was wrong (i.e the PR one) and it is this that has had a knock on effect (no pun intended) to the point that no decision can be taken in isolation any more.

Well I don't know about no decision being taken in isolation but I also think the PR descion was wrong and what Cummings has done is stick to the wrong set of guns.

If it is the player with the ball job to hold onto it in a two man tackle how can it be a penalty against the defenders if they knocked it out?

Dave

[robjoenz]

DaveO posted:
If it is the player with the ball job to hold onto it in a two man tackle how can it be a penalty against the defenders if they knocked it out?

It's a very grey area, there is a very fine line between a ball steal and a loose carry. The only way to change this is to change the rules, but this goes against the intent of the current ball stealing rules.

[DaveO]

robjoenz posted:

DaveO posted:
If it is the player with the ball job to hold onto it in a two man tackle how can it be a penalty against the defenders if they knocked it out?

It's a very grey area, there is a very fine line between a ball steal and a loose carry. The only way to change this is to change the rules, but this goes against the intent of the current ball stealing rules.

Well the ball stealing rules were far better when players could steal it regardless of how many in the tackle. Far simpler to police because you didn't have players deliberately dropping the ball to milk a penalty as well as it being a matter of opinion whether the ball ripping was intentional or not.

At the moment the only way to decide if it's a steal or a loose carry is by attempting to judge the intent of the player kncking the ball loose.

That is asking the refs and video refs to be mind readers and at the moment the way they seem to read players minds is by judging if they were looking at the ball or not when they bring their arm down kncking it out.

That is stupid because it will have coaches instructing players to attempt to rip the ball while looking skywards.

However I do think there is a difference in how such incidents are refereed in general play and how they are refereed when a try is on the cards with the players over the line.

It does seem to be the case if it is the "try" version of events its a knock on but in general play its an illegal ball steal.

This difference is especially true when we have a video ref in place adjudicating on a try because Cummings has now made it virtually impossible for the attacking player not to be judged as having knocked on in these circumstances.

Dave

[Mike]

DaveO posted:

Well the ball stealing rules were far better when players could steal it regardless of how many in the tackle. Far simpler to police because you didn't have players deliberately dropping the ball to milk a penalty as well as it being a matter of opinion whether the ball ripping was intentional or not.

I'm very much behind you on this one. I was going to start a campaign to get the rule switched back to its old state on the grounds that the rule as it now stands is bringing the game into disrepute. To aviod claims of bias (i.e. your only doing this because it affected Wigan this season) I was going to start next year. I think the rule as it stands is unrefereeable for the reasons you state. We should revert to the ref deciding if it went forwards of the last player it touched - its a knock-on, otherwise play-on (difficult enough as it is).

[GeoffN]

Mike posted:

DaveO posted:

Well the ball stealing rules were far better when players could steal it regardless of how many in the tackle. Far simpler to police because you didn't have players deliberately dropping the ball to milk a penalty as well as it being a matter of opinion whether the ball ripping was intentional or not.

I'm very much behind you on this one. I was going to start a campaign to get the rule switched back to its old state on the grounds that the rule as it now stands is bringing the game into disrepute. To aviod claims of bias (i.e. your only doing this because it affected Wigan this season) I was going to start next year. I think the rule as it stands is unrefereeable for the reasons you state. We should revert to the ref deciding if it went forwards of the last player it touched - its a knock-on, otherwise play-on (difficult enough as it is).

Me too. I watch a lot of NFL, where that rule is in place - it's always the ball-carriers responsibility to keep hold of the ball, irrespective of (or should I say notwithstanding?) how many are in the tackle.
I accept that it might have the effect of reducing the number of offloads, (which is where the analogy breaks down, as NFL players don't offload in the tackle) but I think that's a small price to pay for an easier and more consistent application of the rules.

[oldtimer]

why is it that we have MORE debate now that we have all this tech: in the old days the ref gave a decision and that was that.now we have more officials[ref linesmen2 in line judges4 video ref,]we still get calls that we[fans ] are right and the officials wrong every time[this only applies to wigan]time to turn the clock back and get on with it,if video is so good WHY is it not used at all matches? :conf:

[Mike]

oldtimer posted:
why is it that we have MORE debate now that we have all this tech: in the old days the ref gave a decision and that was that.

Because now we can see the replays time and time again.

oldtimer posted:
now we have more officials[ref linesmen2 in line judges4 video ref,]we still get calls that we[fans ] are right and the officials wrong every time[this only applies to wigan]

Thats not a fair comment, these "ball stealing" calls have affected many matches this eason, not just Wigan. They also get a lot of descisions right. The video ref has greatly increased the number of calls that get given correctly, although it hasn't made every call correct.

oldtimer posted:
time to turn the clock back and get on with it,if video is so good WHY is it not used at all matches? :conf:

Its not used at every match because of the cost of having all the cameras and technology at every ground every week. It should be used every week at every match.

IMO The video ref is not the problem here, it is the un-refereeable ball stealing rule. The amount of decisions that occur in general play that are awarded as a random guess between penalty and knock-on is incredible. Nowadays, a penalty results in a try semmingly more often than not, so the ref is having a huge influence on the outcome, even when he is not in a position to be sure about his descisions.

The rule needs getting rid of and reverting to the old style ball stealing is allowed in any tackle regulations.

[Welski]

I suppose given we've been on the end of a some dodgy calls recently we should at least be grateful we haven't got the muppet who was 'upstairs' in the final game of the origin series.

Some of his calls were bizarre.

[DaveO]

Welski posted:
I suppose given we've been on the end of a some dodgy calls recently we should at least be grateful we haven't got the muppet who was 'upstairs' in the final game of the origin series.

Some of his calls were bizarre.

Presley and Kershaw were the video refs for the 3rd origin game.

Dave