KaylaRobbo wrote:All this 'he cost us the game' is ifs and buts.
No it's not. It a fact. None of what you said after this happened. Flower getting sent off did and everything else flows from there. It really is that simple.
He cost us the game. Everybody else knows he did including Ben Flower!
There is no way on earth he isn't going to get punished for it and IMO the club needs to sanction him as well.
Talk of his rehabilitation before he has even been banned is premature.
The club has made a right mess of the publicity of this with the documentary and all the work IL did of getting Wigan "liked" again following on from the DW reign has gone up in smoke.
We are now a team of thugs and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.
And this will stay with him for the rest for his career and why would you expect otherwise? Just like Don Fox will never forget missing a kick to win the cup final in front of the sticks. He will have to deal with it and the best way is to take the punishment and carry on playing afterwards.
Flower is not the victim here.
If flower stays on we have a much better chance of winning the game - FACT
When Flower was sent off it made it much harder for us to win the game - FACT
Did Flower cost us the game - OPINION
No it is a fact. To suggest it isn't flies im the fact of all logic.
There was only going to be one result once he went off.
DaveO wrote:
No it's not. It a fact. None of what you said after this happened. Flower getting sent off did and everything else flows from there. It really is that simple.
He cost us the game. Everybody else knows he did including Ben Flower!
There is no way on earth he isn't going to get punished for it and IMO the club needs to sanction him as well.
Talk of his rehabilitation before he has even been banned is premature.
The club has made a right mess of the publicity of this with the documentary and all the work IL did of getting Wigan "liked" again following on from the DW reign has gone up in smoke.
We are now a team of thugs and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.
And this will stay with him for the rest for his career and why would you expect otherwise? Just like Don Fox will never forget missing a kick to win the cup final in front of the sticks. He will have to deal with it and the best way is to take the punishment and carry on playing afterwards.
Flower is not the victim here.
If flower stays on we have a much better chance of winning the game - FACT
When Flower was sent off it made it much harder for us to win the game - FACT
Did Flower cost us the game - OPINION
No it is a fact. To suggest it isn't flies im the fact of all logic.
There was only going to be one result once he went off.
You can ask Ben Flower if you don't believe me.
So do you not think we still should have won the game, because I do!!
'If you start listening to the fans it won't be long before you're sitting with them.' - Wayne Bennett
He cost us the game. Everybody else knows he did including Ben Flower!
"Looks like not EVERYONE on this forum KNOWS he lost the game"
There is no way on earth he isn't going to get punished for it
"Never said what he did was right and neither that he wasn't going to get punished"
We are now a team of thugs and everyone is jumping on the bandwagon.
"Not everyone. I've spoken to numerous other opposing team fans since and none of them (surprisingly enough) have ganged us all as a group of thugs. Most comments are that the coaches have wound the players on both sides up too much actually!"
And this will stay with him for the rest for his career and why would you expect otherwise?
"There's a difference between a player forever regretting something stupid they have done in the past and trying to make it right - and not being let to forget it especially by their own fans"
Flower is not the victim here.
"True. Never said any different! However I'll be damned if I'll make it the only thing I think about when I judge Ben in the future (which I hope is with us). I don't know a single person who hasn't made a mistake so I'm not going to damn a player for over-reacting in the heat of the moment for the rest of his career!"
Well said Ben is quite aware of his actions and i think he should be closely watched for the sake of his mental state because you will have people after his blood he will take his punishment like a man and its about time the media layed off
Lets have a go at taking peoples emotions out of the argument here and focus more on the facts.
Elbow/Forearm to the face, is it a sending off offence.
Don't be blinkered by what Ben Flower has done, as his offence was correctly picked up and he will be suitably punished for it.
Is the elbow/forearm to the face a sending off offence.
If the answer is yes, then the officials have failed to do their job correctly and Saint Helens should have been reduced to 12 men too.
Would Wigan have lost the game with 12 v 12, now that's an opinion, and in my opinion I don't think Wigan would have lost the game.
Dave if it was a fact that a man being sent loses a team a game then can you explain how teams a man down frequently play better (inspired) and often win the game.
cpwigan wrote:Dave if it was a fact that a man being sent loses a team a game then can you explain how teams a man down frequently play better (inspired) and often win the game.
We should have won the GF even 12 v 14
Probably not for the full, virtual 80 minutes though, cp.
Closest to such an upset that I can remember was GB v Australia at the DW, and Morley was sent after a similar time. And again it was only in the last quarter that Australia beat us.
Virtually impossible to play 12 v 13 in the modern era and win.
I think we should do all we can to support Flower as a person. Make sure he gets the best advice and knows that the club does not believe he is a bad person.
When the dust has settled, I think we should sell him. He has brought shame onto our great club. His behaviour cost us a Grand Final, and they do not come along very often. It was painfully obvious that we could not have lost that game with 13 men.
One problem with our recruitment is that, in players like Dudson, Flower, Sarg and Clubb we have too many people who have learnt the game later in life. The sort of discipline and balance we see instinctively from the likes of Bateman and Joel aren't there under the most red hot pressure.
I do not say this lightly and wish him well, but I would not be unhappy to see him never play for our club again, and certainly can't see any merit in his ever playing against Saints again, as the potential for them to wind up him, the rest of the team and the crowd in the certain knowledge that any indiscretions on their part will be excused and any on ours will be magnified is great.
Flower lost us a certain victory on Saturday, tarnished the reputation of a wonderful institution, and made our job for years to come to win trophies far more difficult.
To end where I began, as far as Flower the man is concerned, he must feel awful, and which of us has not done something in a moment of madness that we regret for a long time afterwards. Consistent with due legal process we owe it to him to stand by him until he has come to terms with the inevitibly harsh punishment coming his way.
cpwigan wrote:Dave if it was a fact that a man being sent loses a team a game then can you explain how teams a man down frequently play better (inspired) and often win the game.
It lost us that game so in the context of this discussion that is all that matters.
In a league game you might win against poor opposition if you go a man down for the 2nd half or last 1/4 something but surely no one expects to win a Grand Final playing with 12 men for 77 minutes? And guess what? We didn't.
Its sad that its come to this but i think certain people (willnot mention ) should keep their fat traps shut let the lad take his punishment and try to put it to bed lets get back to the great game of rugby there is enough bad rivary with these two clubs without keep stoking the fire
