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And now we have Theresa May appealing to the 'Working Class'.
Gawd help us.

DaveO wrote:

cpwigan wrote:I hope Corby cannot stand because by myunderstanding he needs sufficient MPs to enable him to do so. The rules need clarifying thereafter. If Corbyn want to stand, form a new party, Momentumor Loony Left Trots.

If you bothered to look at any of the policies being put forward you would see Corbyn's Labour is centre left not some loony left alternative. There are also some genuinely interesting policies such as the citizen's wage (being tried in Finland and Utrecht in Holland).

The problem is the alternative is Tory Lite.

Eagle and the likes of Benn suggest they want to follow the parliamentary route to socialism implying Corbyn can't because he is unelectable hence they are the best option to achieve this.

Therefore they have adopted many Tory policies having totally given up any attempt to change people's minds by making strong cases against such policies.

This is populism, not socialism.

If they really do believe in these policies they have no place in the Labour party. If they are trying to be politically pragmatic suggesting they are appealing to Tory voters by adopting (some) Tory policy they are letting the Tories set the agenda and are weak.

What happened to outright opposition to bad policy?

JC's election as leader should have given Eagle & Co the chance to shake off the shackles of following a Tory inspired agenda and allow them to follow what I'd hope would be their true socialist instincts. They clearly don't want to do so because they are either not socialists or they don't have the guts for the fight.

They have not in my view allowed the slight (and it is slight despite views to the contrary) move to left JC represents to be tested out when presented by a united party.

Has JC made mistakes and does he come across badly in the media? Sure but if those such as Eagle spent as much time supporting him as they do attacking him and offered a united front then maybe it would be possible to combat the right wing attacks on Labour and JC. And make a strong case for very real alternative policies.

There are plenty of good orators in the PLP who could aid Corbyn as Bevan aided Atlee. They have chosen not to it seems and if they get their way Labour can forget ever getting back Scotland and may as well add the Brexit voting North of England and much of Wales to that.

People in the Labour heartlands won't vote for them just to "save the NHS" and neither will floating voters in Tory areas if they see little difference.

Michael Foot was just the same as JC and look what happened to him,he was a decent chap and well liked by the labour rank and file they loved him. He was up against the most right wing government set on destroying the unions and the NHS and taking away workers rights. You would have thought he would romp home in the labour heart lands but no he was defeated in north and south. The same will happen again, the voters float about and pretending they want radical politics but when it comes to the election they vote for same old tried and trusted policy's .The idealists which you sound like are always unhappy with popularist policy's which win elections but most people look to how it will effect them in the pocket when they vote, and I have never known anybody vote to pay higher taxes

nellywelly wrote:

DaveO wrote:

cpwigan wrote:I hope Corby cannot stand because by myunderstanding he needs sufficient MPs to enable him to do so. The rules need clarifying thereafter. If Corbyn want to stand, form a new party, Momentumor Loony Left Trots.

If you bothered to look at any of the policies being put forward you would see Corbyn's Labour is centre left not some loony left alternative. There are also some genuinely interesting policies such as the citizen's wage (being tried in Finland and Utrecht in Holland).

The problem is the alternative is Tory Lite.

Eagle and the likes of Benn suggest they want to follow the parliamentary route to socialism implying Corbyn can't because he is unelectable hence they are the best option to achieve this.

Therefore they have adopted many Tory policies having totally given up any attempt to change people's minds by making strong cases against such policies.

This is populism, not socialism.

If they really do believe in these policies they have no place in the Labour party. If they are trying to be politically pragmatic suggesting they are appealing to Tory voters by adopting (some) Tory policy they are letting the Tories set the agenda and are weak.

What happened to outright opposition to bad policy?

JC's election as leader should have given Eagle & Co the chance to shake off the shackles of following a Tory inspired agenda and allow them to follow what I'd hope would be their true socialist instincts. They clearly don't want to do so because they are either not socialists or they don't have the guts for the fight.

They have not in my view allowed the slight (and it is slight despite views to the contrary) move to left JC represents to be tested out when presented by a united party.

Has JC made mistakes and does he come across badly in the media? Sure but if those such as Eagle spent as much time supporting him as they do attacking him and offered a united front then maybe it would be possible to combat the right wing attacks on Labour and JC. And make a strong case for very real alternative policies.

There are plenty of good orators in the PLP who could aid Corbyn as Bevan aided Atlee. They have chosen not to it seems and if they get their way Labour can forget ever getting back Scotland and may as well add the Brexit voting North of England and much of Wales to that.

People in the Labour heartlands won't vote for them just to "save the NHS" and neither will floating voters in Tory areas if they see little difference.

Michael Foot was just the same as JC and look what happened to him,he was a decent chap and well liked by the labour rank and file they loved him. He was up against the most right wing government set on destroying the unions and the NHS and taking away workers rights. You would have thought he would romp home in the labour heart lands but no he was defeated in north and south. The same will happen again, the voters float about and pretending they want radical politics but when it comes to the election they vote for same old tried and trusted policy's .The idealists which you sound like are always unhappy with popularist policy's which win elections but most people look to how it will effect them in the pocket when they vote, and I have never known anybody vote to pay higher taxes

Who said anything about higher taxes? It's not idealistic to oppose the bedroom tax and a sanctions based welfare system that has dying people forced to look for work as has happened.

What I am on about is opposition to policies like that. Instead what your get from the Blairite faction is them trying to outdo the Tories on being tough on "benefit cheats" because they are clueless how to oppose the narrative that everyone on benefits is a scrounger.

The Tories have long adopted a "divide and rule" strategy and if it's not convincing people are benefits cheats it's convincing others they pay too much for a student's education (they used to pay naff all) or as they did before the referendum happily allowing the exaggeration of the impact of migrants because it suited.

That is the sort of populism I am on about. Letting the right wing press frame the debate and doing nothing to oppose it. In fact they perpetuate the problem. Given Eagle's voting record I am surprised she wasn't challenging May for the Tory leadership.

As a grass roots Labour member I agree with a lot of Corbyn's policies, however, with me, he is preaching to the converted. Political parties these days need media savvy leaders who can court the press and come over well on TV in order to attract swing voters. Sadly Corbyn isn't that person (though neither is Eagle).

Now JC has moved Labour to having a more left wing agenda which it's traditional supporters craved he should stand aside for a person who both the PLP and JC himself consider to be more able to sell that vision to the British public as a whole.

The only saving grace in all this is that under the fixed term parliament rules the Tories can't call a snap election unless they lose a vote of no confidence in the Commons.

doc wrote:As a grass roots Labour member I agree with a lot of Corbyn's policies, however, with me, he is preaching to the converted. Political parties these days need media savvy leaders who can court the press and come over well on TV in order to attract swing voters. Sadly Corbyn isn't that person (though neither is Eagle).

Now JC has moved Labour to having a more left wing agenda which it's traditional supporters craved he should stand aside for a person who both the PLP and JC himself consider to be more able to sell that vision to the British public as a whole.

The only saving grace in all this is that under the fixed term parliament rules the Tories can't call a snap election unless they lose a vote of no confidence in the Commons.

I suppose they could repeal the fixed term parliament act.

I think you are right about the need for media savvy leaders to attract swing voters but the likes of Atlee were not great orators. He had Bevan to do that for him so it's not impossible for a more quiet leader to get on IMO but no one has stepped up to help Corbyn with that or to polish him up a bit.

Sad we have to do that but we do.

BriH wrote:And now we have Theresa May appealing to the 'Working Class'.
Gawd help us.

Isn't that what we all want? A party that is not divided upon the anachronistic lines of "class".

Sounds good to me!

Consign Socialism to the history books, along with Elitism. Forget the terrible idea of Equality and champion the cause of Equal Opportunity (obviously impossible in reality but we can nudge our systems towards it).

BriH wrote:And now we have Theresa May appealing to the 'Working Class'.
Gawd help us.

I thought the same.

She came across well though, well schooled and tutored, with all thoughts of the mess she made of border controls well and truly forgotten. Had she done her job back then, maybe the situation we are in now would be totally different.

I feel sorry for you Dave. Corby is a patsy for McDonald and the rest of the London lunatics. He has no policies, he never did have and simply does what he is told by McDonald. Coryn never had any coherent ideas / policies and was siply a single issue politician repeatedly voting againsy Government policy be it Tory or Labour.

If Corbyn is serious form The Momentum Political Party and leave Labour to decent working class people who have no desire to see the Tory government kep in power by clueless Corbyn.

Here is a ? Do you think he can automatically stand or does he need the votes of MPs. By my reckoning, he requires their support!

cpwigan wrote:I feel sorry for you Dave. Corby is a patsy for McDonald and the rest of the London lunatics. He has no policies, he never did have and simply does what he is told by McDonald. Coryn never had any coherent ideas / policies and was siply a single issue politician repeatedly voting againsy Government policy be it Tory or Labour.

If Corbyn is serious form The Momentum Political Party and leave Labour to decent working class people who have no desire to see the Tory government kep in power by clueless Corbyn.

Here is a ? Do you think he can automatically stand or does he need the votes of MPs. By my reckoning, he requires their support!

Your comment sounds about right for someone who cannot see that the Parliamentary Labour Party as a result of Blair is no longer the party it was in the past and has moved so much to the right that Corbyn now stands out as a extreme left wing Socialist when in fact he is no different than many of the Labour politicians of the past.,

A few years ago, the 'gang of four' left the Labour Party because of the 'Militant Tendency' taking control of the party and formed the SDP to the right of the Labour Party, but which later merged with the Liberal Party to form the Liberal Democrats. Many of those in the SDP who did not agree with the merger carried on with the SDP.

Today, it is a party who as a result of the Labour Party moving so far to the right now finds itself to the left of the Labour Party.

What we do not need is two main right wing parties in Parliament and no real alternative of a true 'Left of Centre Party' as his the case now and which has resulted in more and more working class people NOT voting at all as they think that they are all tarred and feathered with the same brush.

All politicians are the same irresp[ective of which part they belong to and when in power, governments are destroyed from within again irrespective of whichever party is in power.

He is a long long line that 'principled' labour members who repeatesdly failed to offer any credible opposition to the Conservatives. Far better candudated than Corbyn tried and failed. Why? blindingly obious that the centre ground voters dictate who gets elected. It will always be so. It does not mean that capturing the centre ground means you cannot be left or right wing but it does mean you have to work with the confines of reality.

Labour is in a very difficult position with the London Labour Party finally capturing control which is a nightmare for a nation. Abbot and McDonals both stood before and thankfully failed which meant it was apparently the turn of Corbyn. He wasn't even standing but was put up as a joke, a token lefty. Certainly a very bad joke!

Is Corbyn really Labour!!?? Hardly a labour background was it. A wealthy middle class shire background living in an acient mannot. Hence, Corbtn and his family played politics at the dfinner table but what politics? Meaningful? No related to the daily lives of Joe Public? No

Corbynwas only interested in getting elected to promote some of HIS causes. A selfish middle clsss country bumpkin with 2 failed marriages behind him which tell a story in itself!

So Labour is leftb with an unelectable elderly wierdo who is far happier sat arouind the table with McDonals and Abbot telling him what to do whilst he haopily promotes his middle class single issue politics. Corbyn has been an ever present figure at demos and marches, a joiner of committees, a champion of controversial causes, a tireless pamphleteer, handy with a megaphone. He truly believes he worked tirelessly re the EU. The reality was he was doing what he has always done, preached to the converted, to niches. Ask Corbyn to convert non believers and he runs in the opposite direction.

His passions beliefs are not well most are not ETREME they are just more akin to a train spotter and therein lies the problem, a trainspotter will never be elected as PM!!! but the London Labour Party are happy to sit around a rable patting each other on the bsack whilst lacking the guts to face MPS, Watson EVERYBODY telling Corbyn the truth.

Momentum can FO and take Corbyn, Abbot and McDonals with them. The workibng class are no more reprsented by Corbyn than they were by Blair or the Conservatives.