kevin brown!

[GeoffN]

jinkin jimmy posted:

Where did you get the stat that he has had 72 chances? Were these all starting or are you including subs appearances? How many has he had in any settled position?

If he has had 72 chances, how many has Danny Orr had? He should be loaned out IMO. He's on over double Brown's salary.

I will keep a keen eye on this one. I truly hope it comes back to bite you in the arse.

That would probably be from here:
http://wigan.rlfans.com/fusion_pages/in ... age_id=158

I agree with you, jj...comparing KB to McGuire is not the point. There's not much to choose between him and Orr, though, IMO, which is a more relevant comparison.
Granted Orr makes few mistakes in defence, but neither does he create anything in attack, and he's had roughly the same number of games as KB.

[jinkin jimmy]

Interesting reading, that. Brown 31 tries, Orr 17....Does that mean he's allowed to let in 14 more tries than the Cas legend?

[stevocod]

Yeah given the points to game ratio, he hasn't been that bad and yes maybe not as good as Orr in defense but he makes up for in attack. Surely the best form of defense is attack anyway and field position granted and with Dobson there and not Moran, his kicking game gives a platform for Brown to attack from.

Brown's games apart from the Saints derby where he scored two, he has been behind a pack and a half back that was just going backwards and for a youngster who needed confidence and belief in his ability, that was more of a hindrence than a help, hopefully he will go to the Giants on loan and re-discover some belief, build up his physique and come back a much improved player. But still with Barrett being 28 and 29 when he plays for us, it begs the question will he ever play for Wigan again?

[DaveO]

jinkin jimmy posted:

Well Dave You have had 3 bites at this and you are way over the top. Listing 2 mistakes is indeed pathetic and smacks of a personal dislike. You actually blamed him for letting in a try after he conceded a scrum. What did he do next, miss all 6 tackles? Pathetic.

Well if we listed all the errors we'd be here all day so pointing out two examples of errorrs no player should make are good illustrations of what is wrong with Brown in my opinion.

Looking striaght ahead and passing the ball into touch in your own 20m area is a blatent example of the players ability.

Taking a decision to go for an interception in your own 10m area on the sixth tackle is again and example of a complete lack of judgment on his part. Both errors led to tries against us. One directly the other after the next set of six.

These are just that though, two examples of why I think he is a poor player. However I have seen him make many more equally poor mistakes and I have watched players walk through his tackling.

So at least I can back up my assertion he is a poor player. The pro Brown brigade have to go back to the infamous Saints game where he scored a hat trick to come up with a game where his contribution was considered outstanding. One example. Is that pathetic?

Where did you get the stat that he has had 72 chances? Were these all starting or are you including subs appearances? How many has he had in any settled position?

55 starts and te rest sub appearances from 2003. If he was as good as his defenders make out he would have forced his way into the side by now.

At the start of this season Lockers and he had played roughly the same number of games due to Lockers injury and even though Lockers is having a relatively poor season by his standards he is still streets ahead of Brown. Lockers has progressed, Brown has not.

If he has had 72 chances, how many has Danny Orr had? He should be loaned out IMO. He's on over double Brown's salary.

Less than Brown! How poor Daany Orr is has nothing to do with how good Brown is though has it.

I will keep a keen eye on this one. I truly hope it comes back to bite you in the arse.

I am sure you do but whatever happens in the future with Brown it won't make any difference to the fact he has done nothing of note for the past two seasons will it?

Dave

[DaveO]

stevocod posted:
Yeah given the points to game ratio, he hasn't been that bad and yes maybe not as good as Orr in defense but he makes up for in attack. Surely the best form of defense is attack anyway

Wasn't it John Monie who said defence wins matches?

If they don't score, tou can't loose.

and field position granted and with Dobson there and not Moran, his kicking game gives a platform for Brown to attack from.

Brown's games apart from the Saints derby where he scored two, he has been behind a pack and a half back that was just going backwards

Brown has been playing since 2003 in the first team. He has played with much better packs than we had at the start of this season and with better players in the team.

[qupte] and for a youngster who needed confidence and belief in his ability, that was more of a hindrence than a help, hopefully he will go to the Giants on loan and re-discover some belief, build up his physique and come back a much improved player. But still with Barrett being 28 and 29 when he plays for us, it begs the question will he ever play for Wigan again?[/quote]

Like I said earlier Hudds is his last chance to prove people like me worng in my opinion. He can't get in the Wigan team at the moment with Nobby obviously preferring Orr to him (which should tell everyone something!) so now he has a chance to show us what he can do.

Dave

[jinkin jimmy]

A lengthy response as usual Dave but I have done you the service of reading it. My question to you is why do you have such a downer on someone who has never been more than a fringe player and, therefore, has not really contributed to our current situation? There are other much more prominent figures such as Orr, Seu Seu, DV and Tickle who should have done much more to aid our cause and are therefore - in my eyes - far more deserving of criticism than Brown.

[stevocod]

DaveO posted:

stevocod posted:
Yeah given the points to game ratio, he hasn't been that bad and yes maybe not as good as Orr in defense but he makes up for in attack. Surely the best form of defense is attack anyway

Wasn't it John Monie who said defence wins matches?

If they don't score, you can't lose.

and field position granted and with Dobson there and not Moran, his kicking game gives a platform for Brown to attack from.

Brown's games apart from the Saints derby where he scored two, he has been behind a pack and a half back that was just going backwards

Brown has been playing since 2003 in the first team. He has played with much better packs than we had at the start of this season and with better players in the team.

[qupte] and for a youngster who needed confidence and belief in his ability, that was more of a hindrence than a help, hopefully he will go to the Giants on loan and re-discover some belief, build up his physique and come back a much improved player. But still with Barrett being 28 and 29 when he plays for us, it begs the question will he ever play for Wigan again?

Like I said earlier Hudds is his last chance to prove people like me worng in my opinion. He can't get in the Wigan team at the moment with Nobby obviously preferring Orr to him (which should tell everyone something!) so now he has a chance to show us what he can do.

Dave

[/quote]

Well you can't defend all game, granted you need to defend in some parts of the game, but obviously not all and given when we had moran at 7 we were defending alot. The pack hasn't been that good (apart from now) since we lost O'connor and Craig Smith. We also haven't had a good 7 (apart from dobson) since Lam and Robinson obviously a few games.

I would much rather have centres and wingers and a full back who can defend well and have an attacking stand off.

[GeoffN]

DaveO posted:
How poor Danny Orr is has nothing to do with how good Brown is though has it.

Dave

I'd have thought that was precisely the point, from a Wigan viewpoint.

It's not a question of how good Brown is in absolute terms, but whether he's a better option than Orr.
I'd fully agree that KB isn't a centre, which is where most of his appearances have been, but my argument is that he hasn't been given the same extended chance that Orr has at stand-off.
Perhaps it then comes down to whether one prefers an attacking or defending stand-off, which is where we differ.

[DaveO]

jinkin jimmy posted:
A lengthy response as usual Dave but I have done you the service of reading it. My question to you is why do you have such a downer on someone who has never been more than a fringe player and, therefore, has not really contributed to our current situation?

The main reason is I suppose that last season after playing poorly he held out for and got an improved contract. He is a 20/20 player and I think he has some notion he is better than he is.

I also do believe he is liable to make the kind of howler than can change a game against us as in the examples I gave.

He is for me an exampl eof a young player who has not kicked on as he should have.

There are other much more prominent figures such as Orr, Seu Seu, DV and Tickle who should have done much more to aid our cause and are therefore - in my eyes - far more deserving of criticism than Brown.

If you look at this seaosn you are right about Tickle but last season he was fine ans played a lot better than KB. Don't know what had gone wrong there but we know he can do it whereas we can't say thet with Brown.

Orr, while not offering much on attack is not the turnstyle in defence Brown is.

Seu Seu has let us down by not retiring at the end of last season when it must have been obvious he was not going to recover but at least he has gone now.

DV is a major let down as well I agree but just because these lot are below par doesn't mean Brown is any good. At least they can tackle an oppsoing centre.

Dave

[DaveO]

GeoffN posted:

DaveO posted:
How poor Danny Orr is has nothing to do with how good Brown is though has it.

Dave

I'd have thought that was precisely the point, from a Wigan viewpoint.

It's not a question of how good Brown is in absolute terms, but whether he's a better option than Orr.
I'd fully agree that KB isn't a centre, which is where most of his appearances have been, but my argument is that he hasn't been given the same extended chance that Orr has at stand-off.

You have to question why is this? If he showed anything at stand off surely the coaching staff past and present would happily swap him for Orr on a more regular basis.

As Millward was in charge when he signed a new contract I would have expected him to have had more game time at s/o as Millward never seemed that enamoured with Orr.

Perhaps it then comes down to whether one prefers an attacking or defending stand-off, which is where we differ.

I don't think it is just a matter of prefering an attacking or defensive stand off but whether or not Brown is up to providing any defence against SL opposition. Even attacking stand offs need to be able to tackle properly I wonder if Noble thinks this weakness in his game precludes using him even if he is better going forward than Orr.

Than of course there is always the chance with KB he will do something completely stupid in attack pr defence.

Dave