Riddell

[DaveO]

There may be some justification for Richards 1st year being a poor one but the point still stands that people on here (and without trawling through historical threads we'll have to leave it that, you know who you are), who would have been made up if Richards went to Wakefield. They didn't care or realise at the time that poor coaching was the major factor behind a obviously class and proven player's failure to play to his full potential.

Re the text in bold. The point I was making is that Richards first season as a whole WAS NOT poor. He was poor under Millward and found his form under Noble when played on the wing. Yet if I had a pound for every time his mythical poor season gets held up as an excuse for other new arrivals I would have paid for my season ticket several times over.

The point still stands that numerous players in our 1st team were bad last year and Piggy was 1 of them. Regardless, it is of no significance whatsoever now and all that matters is what happens from the 1st day he turns up at training and through next season.

I agree. Clean slate but when players are discussed in the off season their form in the season just gone is bound to come up when opinions are expressed. I don't see how it can't.

I don't want to badger the point, all I'm saying is that yes we all have our favourites, and all have our lets say "less favourites". Whatever, they are all in OUR Team, a Team that is being managed completely differently now. It is safe to say that Bitcon, Maguire and Wane will be all over every player's performance like a rash. That's what good Coaches do.

Exactly. And so I expect to see Piggy improve. Or be dropped.

What good supporters do is stop going on about stuff that adds no value to us now, and get on with getting behind every member of our new team. That way, we may contribute to them doing what we want them to do, which is to ultimately to "learn" from the past, and go much better in the future!

This I don't agree with in that while I will give players who under performed a clean slate that doesn't mean I can suddenly divorce how I rate them from their previous form.

As things stand I don't rate Riddell. I will be perfectly happy if he improves under the new coaching set up but he can't have my unquestioned support until he proves himself a better player. He needs to earn it because he left me (and others) unimpressed in 2009.

Most people would agree that we need to see more of everyone in the Team with Roberts, Piggy, Fielden, Feka, Coley, McIlorum, etc., and even Gleeson not yet hitting the consistent level of effort and performance that we demand from players who wear a Wigan shirt. It is not just Piggy!

No it's not just piggy but this thread is about him.

Dave

[cpwigan]

Let me get this right if you dare to criticise a player you are a bad supporter I must be a bad supporter then. Ian Lenagan must be a bad supporter. Shaun Wane too. Where do we stop

Personally I have no favourite / least favourite players. If they do the job, fantastic. If they do not do the job then Houston we have a problem. Pat Richards came to Wigan as an integral member of a GF winning NRL club. Piggy came to Wigan as a bench warmer for a young teenage hooker in a very poor NRL club. Had he remained in Australia he would not be playing invthe NRL now. Pat Richards had a minor blip, Gene Miles did too if you want to go back blah blah and they both turned it around very quickly. Piggy has had a full season and at various stages not only not delivered but taken the P. There's a young hooker who may not be the finished article but at least I would be happy sat next to him in the trenches. Do we ignore what we see so we can be good supporters and ignore form over past reputation just to be good supporters.

On your basis why is Maguire even here. We should have stuck with Noble on the basis of past record. An ageing record.

Clapping in hope gets you nowhere. Whatsmore it damages players. Forget Duty of care cliches. Sam Tomkins should have been playing with Trent Barrett and Tommy and Micky should have played hooker. We might have made the GF year IMO if we had and Sam T would be a better player than he is now.

Form should be the only determinant of whether you wear the Cheerrry n White for Wigan. I do not care where you come from, what your accent is as long as you delivery. I certainly could not give a hoot for reputation. Past reputation is the stuff of scrap brooks when you have finished playing not a reason to be selected here and now.

A bad supporter apparently.

Without getting on your high horse or taking it personally and giving an eight page transcribe why you know better I think you have misread R Douglas' post.

He/she is not saying support all the players irrespective of how poorly they have performed, just that the coaching (of whome you have been most critical) "might" have played some part to players looking worse then they theoretically were.

If it was entirely a coaching then why did some players play well and other not. We have all seen Wigan teams play well irrespective of the coach. the only time a coach in recent memory has IIRC led to a Wigan team almost to a player suffering is Ian Millward. Players have to accept some responsibility fotr their own actions/form

Many looked better when at another team (Amos being a prime point) but whilst at Wigan, they appeared unsure of not only their roles within the team. Also with organisation/tactics/consistent form plus lower fitness levels being at a premium, this seemed to make the vast majority of senior players look very average for large chunks of whichever of Brian Noble's seasons you care to mention (the point being made by RD)

One hopes so. However, one has to recognise that players / coaches improve / peak / decline. Piggy;

Club Years Team Pld T G FG P
2001–04 St. George Illawarra 92 30 198 1 517
2005–08 Parramatta Eels 86 14 28 0 112
2009– Wigan Warriors 24 3 0 0 12

Total 202 47 226 1 641

Representative
Years Team Pld T G FG P
2004–05 City 2 1 0 0 4

Those stats indicate Piggy peaked in 2004/ 2005. We signed someone on the downward. A huge risk when hooker is such a key position. I would argue 7 or 6, 9 and 1 are the 3 key positions in modern RL with a great prop not far behind.


With the appointment of MM, it can be hoped that the players WILL respond or eventually be moved on. Either way, the lackluster displays (especially early season) should be over.

Therein lies the issue. Eventually Hence why I am prepred to write 2010 off because Maguire has little freedom to manouvre re signings. Sign a bad players under the cap and you self harm. Those players become a millstone.

As for Gene Miles, why bring him up? Her was only at Wigan for one season. The first part he was awful, to the point after an away defeat at Salford, fans were actually saying (on the fan bus home) they would contribute to paying for his return home on a surfboard (he at the time admitted to a "love" of surfing). His form had nothing to do with coaching at that time

Gene Miles, as an example of a player that had a slow start through injury but came good. Superbly so. There was a reason for a short term form dip. Likewise Richards selected at centre. A reason for a short term form dip.

- yet Pat Richards poor start at Wigan WAS blamed on Agent Millward playing him out of position - a coaching fault, so your comparison is not valid.

Lets just clarify this for you - no one is a "happy clapper" or "bad supporter" for wanting the team to have improved from the performances we witnessed over the last few years. Just that everyone IS expectant of even our poorer looking players performing at a higher level.

Maybe you don't actually like the idea of your "pet hates" actually "looking good" under MM? :sly: This would debunk everything you have ever written and prove that it was all down to coaching (or non-coaching if the case be) that determined a players form.

Personally I want every Wigan player to play well for Wigan. Whether they will or not only time will tell but I am quite happy with my own judgements that whether you like it or not have been proven correct far more than incorrect. As fan we have the right to praise or criticise players.

We shall have to wait and see, either way, MM is either going to be a good coach, or the players will remain crap and MM will get the sack for not getting the improved form. This is for MM to "sort" and with the backroom staff being put in place, one hopes for the former.

I have no doubt MM will be an excellent coach. Therein lies the difference between you and I. I am prepared to say what I think. Cutting edge NRL knowledge is so vital in modern RL which is very difficult to play in an entertaining manner. He will I would think be given time by the Wigan board and he will get time from fans hopefully. He certainly will from me. The days of new coaches every season are hopefully over

As for Riddell, he does have a lot to prove this season. First he needs to improve his fitness levels, we shall see what sort of form he brings after that lifestyle change! At least with the signing of Deacon, this does give the coach the opportunity to play with McIlorum or Leuluai at hooker without the need for wholesale changes in the team as we have seen too often

Riddell owes Wigan RLFC a season because he did not deliver in 2009. I do not hold out much hope for a player that has not delivered since 2005 and is more personality than player. His antics and lack of commitment in 2009 and his late arrival (He should have cancelled his honeymoon until a later date and been here) for 2010 do not bode well. When he arrived at Wigan he could not train for longer than 20 minutes under Forshaw, Noble had to force him to play v Wire in the friendly. So he brought issues to Wigan and could not blame Noble. If he was a free agent he would not get a contract with an NRL club IMO. If Richards left Wigan tomorrow he would get an NRL contract IMO.

Under the cap, you cannot afford to make mistakes. The cap penalises mistakes big time. Piggy time will tell but a player who peaked in 2004 / 2005 is long odds to come good, especially with Glen Hall now in the UK.

[cpwigan]

There may be some justification for Richards 1st year being a poor one but the point still stands that people on here (and without trawling through historical threads we'll have to leave it that, you know who you are), who would have been made up if Richards went to Wakefield. They didn't care or realise at the time that poor coaching was the major factor behind a obviously class and proven player's failure to play to his full potential.

The point still stands that numerous players in our 1st team were bad last year and Piggy was 1 of them. Regardless, it is of no significance whatsoever now and all that matters is what happens from the 1st day he turns up at training and through next season.

I don't want to badger the point, all I'm saying is that yes we all have our favourites, and all have our lets say "less favourites". Whatever, they are all in OUR Team, a Team that is being managed completely differently now. It is safe to say that Bitcon, Maguire and Wane will be all over every player's performance like a rash. That's what good Coaches do.

What good supporters do is stop going on about stuff that adds no value to us now, and get on with getting behind every member of our new team. That way, we may contribute to them doing what we want them to do, which is to ultimately to "learn" from the past, and go much better in the future!

Most people would agree that we need to see more of everyone in the Team with Roberts, Piggy, Fielden, Feka, Coley, McIlorum, etc., and even Gleeson not yet hitting the consistent level of effort and performance that we demand from players who wear a Wigan shirt. It is not just Piggy!

Bottom line is I loathe this notion of good and bad supporters so whenever anybody starts throwing labels like good and bad suppoprters you will get a reply. I do not care if somebody agrees or disagrees with a POV but when they start ranking supporters as good or bad then IMO nobody has that right.

Your statement highlighted was contradictory IMO. In one breadth you are saying stop going on about stuff that adds no value now but saying we want players to learn from the past and ultimately go better.

This thread does exactly that. It does not hide from Piggy not delivering in 2009 and says what he needs to address in 2010. The worst thing you can do IMO is molicoddle players, pat them on the back and pretend they are wonderful. I daresay Wane and Maguire will be upfront with players as other coaches were who did well at Wigan. So supporters cannot nor should they ignore what has gon on in the past.

Of course Piggy is not alone but it is the senior highest paid players who IMO need to justify their salaries. None moreso than Stuart Fielden. We are not good, bad, better or worse fans for highlighting that view.

The trend IMO is for any post criticising a player to be attacked and then oddly the people attacking that criticism complain they feel they are being hard done to. I have yet to see a positive thread attacked. However, offer a criticism and some people see it as treason.

I don't care about profiles BTW No offence. I judge people by their actions and what they type.

[butt monkey]

Riddell owes Wigan RLFC a season because he did not deliver in 2009. I do not hold out much hope for a player that has not delivered since 2005 and is more personality than player. His antics and lack of commitment in 2009 and his late arrival (He should have cancelled his honeymoon until a later date and been here) for 2010 do not bode well. When he arrived at Wigan he could not train for longer than 20 minutes under Forshaw, Noble had to force him to play v Wire in the friendly. So he brought issues to Wigan and could not blame Noble. If he was a free agent he would not get a contract with an NRL club IMO. If Richards left Wigan tomorrow he would get an NRL contract IMO.

Under the cap, you cannot afford to make mistakes. The cap penalises mistakes big time. Piggy time will tell but a player who peaked in 2004 / 2005 is long odds to come good, especially with Glen Hall now in the UK.

You have caught me at a point whereby I have has one or two drinks

I have respect for you and your knowledge and never doubt your passion for Wigan, this goes for all (one or two I have my doubts about ) posters on here.

I am not advocating within my post, the dismissal of MM should he be deemed to have "failed" this forthcoming season. I hated/was embarrassed by the constant changing of coaches. I do however blame the inexperienced Chairmen (Peter Norbury) for some of those! Whilst some should never have been anywhere near the first team position at Wigan as well.

Back to Riddell. I would assume that MM know Riddells "baggage" from the NRL. It is the coaches job to get the player to perform and meet the criteria/improved standards that are being introduced or be dropped/sacked. Failure to do so would reflect badly and set a bad example to the other less professional mindset players within the team.

As for canceling the Honeymoon or moving it - lol you are having a laugh I tried it with my missus and we were nearly divorced after two days Rugby! What f***** rugby was her response

[R Douglas]

There may be some justification for Richards 1st year being a poor one but the point still stands that people on here (and without trawling through historical threads we'll have to leave it that, you know who you are), who would have been made up if Richards went to Wakefield. They didn't care or realise at the time that poor coaching was the major factor behind a obviously class and proven player's failure to play to his full potential.

The point still stands that numerous players in our 1st team were bad last year and Piggy was 1 of them. Regardless, it is of no significance whatsoever now and all that matters is what happens from the 1st day he turns up at training and through next season.

I don't want to badger the point, all I'm saying is that yes we all have our favourites, and all have our lets say "less favourites". Whatever, they are all in OUR Team, a Team that is being managed completely differently now. It is safe to say that Bitcon, Maguire and Wane will be all over every player's performance like a rash. That's what good Coaches do.

What good supporters do is stop going on about stuff that adds no value to us now, and get on with getting behind every member of our new team. That way, we may contribute to them doing what we want them to do, which is to ultimately to "learn" from the past, and go much better in the future!

Most people would agree that we need to see more of everyone in the Team with Roberts, Piggy, Fielden, Feka, Coley, McIlorum, etc., and even Gleeson not yet hitting the consistent level of effort and performance that we demand from players who wear a Wigan shirt. It is not just Piggy!

Bottom line is I loathe this notion of good and bad supporters so whenever anybody starts throwing labels like good and bad suppoprters you will get a reply. I do not care if somebody agrees or disagrees with a POV but when they start ranking supporters as good or bad then IMO nobody has that right.

Your statement highlighted was contradictory IMO. In one breadth you are saying stop going on about stuff that adds no value now but saying we want players to learn from the past and ultimately go better.

This thread does exactly that. It does not hide from Piggy not delivering in 2009 and says what he needs to address in 2010. The worst thing you can do IMO is molicoddle players, pat them on the back and pretend they are wonderful. I daresay Wane and Maguire will be upfront with players as other coaches were who did well at Wigan. So supporters cannot nor should they ignore what has gon on in the past.

Of course Piggy is not alone but it is the senior highest paid players who IMO need to justify their salaries. None moreso than Stuart Fielden. We are not good, bad, better or worse fans for highlighting that view.

The trend IMO is for any post criticising a player to be attacked and then oddly the people attacking that criticism complain they feel they are being hard done to. I have yet to see a positive thread attacked. However, offer a criticism and some people see it as treason.

I don't care about profiles BTW No offence. I judge people by their actions and what they type.

You are a complete knob!

You are sof ar up your own arse you need a Nasa rated Sat Nav to find your way back out.

Good bye!

[pedro]

Thats a dummy spitting if ever I saw one [/b]

[ddtftf]

If you cannot win an argument with intellect then start swearing.
This site is about debate and discussion on issues, not loosing your temper and insulting site members.

[Kittwazzer]

Back to Riddell. I would assume that MM know Riddells "baggage" from the NRL. It is the coaches job to get the player to perform and meet the criteria/improved standards that are being introduced or be dropped/sacked. Failure to do so would reflect badly and set a bad example to the other less professional mindset players within the team.

Butt Monkey, that is a very valid point.

If Piggy was hoping to continue 'flying under the radar'. the appointment of MM must have been his worst nightmare! As you say, MM will be familiar with his 'baggage'. Similarly, Piggy will be under no illusions as to MMs reputation as a no-nonsense taskmaster.

Its up to him now to shape up or step down!!

[Fozzius]

[quote="R Douglas] You are a complete knob!

You are sof ar up your own arse you need a Nasa rated Sat Nav to find your way back out.

Good bye![/quote]

This was a thread i was enjoying reading and i thought many people had valid arguments/points of view. Its a shame you could not have replied with the thoughtfullness of your other posts as this response is just childish.

With regard to the pig i really hope he comes good, but my gut feeling is i wonder whether he has the desire to do so. Imo the difference between him and other senior players such as fielden who are not performing is at least you can see effort. Imo for the majority of last year piggy looked disinterested

[exile in Tiger country]

You are a complete ****!

You are sof ar up your own **** you need a Nasa rated Sat Nav to find your way back out.

Good bye!

Hopefully, with language like that I **** out, the goodbye will be a permanent one from this site