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Our form is crashing downward and it has got to effect confidence.I know we are having a bad time with injurys but we can't keep using this as a excuse.We need to be showing some form and dominate teams to give us some confidence before we go to Wembley. Stats do not lie and they show we are the poorist team of the top four over the last six weeks.Compare that to Leeds last season and I think you will see that they improved and played with confidence and a will to win which was second to none. All is not lost yet but we need a good game under our belts, which to me makes the game against Catalans one of the most important this season

Exiled Wiganer wrote:Please excuse my inability to cut and paste,

You don't have to cut and paste. You hit the quote button and it does it for you.

If you want to pick up a specific point rather than write an essay you just put you can simply select the text and hit quote again and voila,

it's quoted

but taking Dave O's 3 points in turn:
- my point was that we are playing pants, but that need not necessarily be the cause for concern many believe it to be. If we are holding back players, or working on conditioning them so that they can peak for a long period later in the year then that explains why we are now playing below our potential. Given how well we have played in the 4 big games so far this year, I am happy to wait and see. If this is as good as it gets then I'll hold my hand up;

I don't know what you mean by how well we have played in the big four games. We have got results to get us to Wembley against some very poor sides. That is our good fortune and I am sure it annoys fans of other clubs but it is no indicator of form or the quality of our team.

- really? Can a reasonably held and argued opinion on an unprovable point be asserted to be categorically "not true"?

When you are saying Wane is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't, yes. For the reasons I mentioned.

My point flowed directly from my starting point, which was because we are training to peak later and losing league games, he is getting stick when for most of the last year he got stick for adopting the opposite approach.

Wow hang on! "because we are training to peak later and losing league games".

You don't know that is what is going on at all.

He got stick last season for leaving us needing to win v HKR or Saints to win the LLS when he could have had the LLS wrapped up earlier if he hadn't rested players to the extent he did v Widnes and and Bradford. Left us tough ggames to win rather than taking easy points when on offer.

It seems to me that if your forwards are unable to get the upper hand (for reasons already stated), then the lateral/direct point never really comes into play in our game. Without momentum your "tactics" will always look rubbish. His tactics have been good enough to get us into the top 4, to Wembley and allowed us to ensure nobody is over worked. I'll take that for now;

WWe are flat track bullies. We can beat the poor sides but not the better sides. That is a fact this season you cannot dispute and we didn't meet one of the better sides on the way to Wembley. His tactics are poor and have little to do with getting us to Wembley.

I'd also question this of what you said earlier.

As for this intangible momentum argument, I think it's rubbish. Sam and Lockers can slot in any time and lift us to another level. Trying to keep up momentum when others were keeping their powder dry was exactly the sin that Wane as accused of in the past. Now he adopts a Leeds like approach and gets slated.

He's not doing what Leeds do by any stretch of the imagination and it's not momentum that is the issue but form and confidence. These things do play a part in sport.

- I am not psychic, but I don't read much into what people say after games, as I doubt it even remotely tells the whole story, particularly when he states something so far removed from reality. Perhaps you are the psychic one?

No what you do is adopt a straw man approach. You have in front of you several crap performances and a coach who says we are playing good stuff when we have not for weeks and make up arguments why all is well.

You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time. Which are you?

I am off to Wembley and looking forward to it. If we win I will enjoy it as much as I did in 93-94 as well but I know our league campaign has been poor by accident not by design and as such it does not bode well for the play offs.

[quote="cpwigan"]At least Dave O can be positive and negative depending on what he sees WW whereas you are 'blind'

For Wane to come out with the comments he did is laughable. Lest we forget Mr Wane criticise Madge and his teams for not taking team to the cleaners and saying how much better the team / players would be under his coaching. 2/3rds or more through a season and we are going backwards. The results WITH / WITHOUT Tomkins tell the truth. Whether we win the CC or GF or not the overiding impression of Wane I get is Dorahay MKII !!![/quote

His name was actually Dorahy, but unlike Wane, he did not the respect of fellow coaches and players.

And there is no need to make personal remarks against anyone who does not agree with you on a matter.

I must say that I haven't often been called a fool in my life or career. I struggle to understand the mind set of someone who feels it appropriate to answer reasoned answers in that way. Is it insecurity, arrogance or a combination of both?
As it happens, I am sufficiently close to the trainers at the club to have a very good idea as to how they are treating the physical condition of the players, hence my relaxed approach.
Here is my argument on the big games in simple terms - the CC is a big competition, one of the 2 in offer by common consent - we have played 4 and won 4 of those games - given the value attached to those games we were right to prioritise them and did so very nicely - between them HKR, London and Widnes has beaten every one of the top sides at some stage this year, so they were not to be taken lightly - on momentum, Wire shipped 60 points against London and won at Wembley the following week - presumably DaveO's head would have exploded had that happened to us - on our performances against other teams, we performed creditably in our won one lost one with Leeds and in our drawn one, lost at the death with an A team against Wire, we are clearly better than Saints, which leaves the Giants as the team we are yet to match, so even there the evidence is selective.
I am not denying we are playing poorly and am not blithely ignoring that. I am simply suggesting that we have insufficient evidence to conclude one way or another how the season would go.
I may strike you as a fool, but then you were proclaiming IL a fool for not re signing Fielden (where is he these days? Surely not injured again?) so I'm in good company.

My thoughts.

I've rewatched our GF win from 2010 recently and the contrast between us then and now is subtle but obvious. Strategically, in that game (and season) our style of play is technically attritional and built on a defence around the ruck that exerts absolute control and stifling dominance. The 3 man tackle technique was sublime to watch and just absorbs pressure over and over again.

Our defence now, is still good but looks in contrast enthusiastic rather than frightening. Rather than absorbing pressure we're looking to exert it by blasting open the doors at every opportunity. This means in tight games, we just don't look like we can grind it out with confidence.

Our attack has become predictable as well and Huddersfield had obviously done a good job in video review. On several occasions they had runners sprinting out the line (Cudjoe) to the the first or second receiver because they'd identified the play before it started.

Exiled Wiganer wrote:I must say that I haven't often been called a fool in my life or career. I struggle to understand the mind set of someone who feels it appropriate to answer reasoned answers in that way. Is it insecurity, arrogance or a combination of both?
As it happens, I am sufficiently close to the trainers at the club to have a very good idea as to how they are treating the physical condition of the players, hence my relaxed approach.
Here is my argument on the big games in simple terms - the CC is a big competition, one of the 2 in offer by common consent - we have played 4 and won 4 of those games - given the value attached to those games we were right to prioritise them and did so very nicely - between them HKR, London and Widnes has beaten every one of the top sides at some stage this year, so they were not to be taken lightly - on momentum, Wire shipped 60 points against London and won at Wembley the following week - presumably DaveO's head would have exploded had that happened to us - on our performances against other teams, we performed creditably in our won one lost one with Leeds and in our drawn one, lost at the death with an A team against Wire, we are clearly better than Saints, which leaves the Giants as the team we are yet to match, so even there the evidence is selective.
I am not denying we are playing poorly and am not blithely ignoring that. I am simply suggesting that we have insufficient evidence to conclude one way or another how the season would go.
I may strike you as a fool, but then you were proclaiming IL a fool for not re signing Fielden (where is he these days? Surely not injured again?) so I'm in good company.

Brilliant post!

Wes wrote:

Exiled Wiganer wrote:I must say that I haven't often been called a fool in my life or career. I struggle to understand the mind set of someone who feels it appropriate to answer reasoned answers in that way. Is it insecurity, arrogance or a combination of both?
As it happens, I am sufficiently close to the trainers at the club to have a very good idea as to how they are treating the physical condition of the players, hence my relaxed approach.
Here is my argument on the big games in simple terms - the CC is a big competition, one of the 2 in offer by common consent - we have played 4 and won 4 of those games - given the value attached to those games we were right to prioritise them and did so very nicely - between them HKR, London and Widnes has beaten every one of the top sides at some stage this year, so they were not to be taken lightly - on momentum, Wire shipped 60 points against London and won at Wembley the following week - presumably DaveO's head would have exploded had that happened to us - on our performances against other teams, we performed creditably in our won one lost one with Leeds and in our drawn one, lost at the death with an A team against Wire, we are clearly better than Saints, which leaves the Giants as the team we are yet to match, so even there the evidence is selective.
I am not denying we are playing poorly and am not blithely ignoring that. I am simply suggesting that we have insufficient evidence to conclude one way or another how the season would go.
I may strike you as a fool, but then you were proclaiming IL a fool for not re signing Fielden (where is he these days? Surely not injured again?) so I'm in good company.

Brilliant post!

Agreed!!

I don't know about bumbling idiot but I do know he (and Lenihan?) take all of us to be bumbling idiots when I read on teletext today that Wane has said that Wigan have not given up yet on winning the LLS :exc: :baaa:

Onlyb for the benifit of CP Westend rich the comment 'subtle but obvius 'is an OXYMORON