whithers and lui lui

[ChrisA]

GeoffN posted:

ChrisA posted:

Genuinly talented young players make there way through if they really are good enough. It makes it look like we are stifling the young players, when the real reason is that 95% of the young players just aren't good enough, and never will be

Dave's already countered most of your points, but I'd just like to pick up on this one: which is true in any sport.
At the moment, only a handful of clubs (those who are normally not under threat of relegation, which is no coincidence) produce players in any numbers.
Three or four times as many clubs with academies like ours or Leeds would produce 3 or 4 times as many youngsters, of which maybe 5% would still make it to the top. But 5% of, say, 200, instead of 50.

Dress it up how you want to Geoff, if they are genuinly good enough, they will force their way through. Fact is that the majority aren't, and it's just easier for most people to look for some other excuse.

Name me a player who has come through in recent history who could even come close to being compared to the likes of Hanley, or Gregory etc, players who you think you will look back and think, they where truely world class. I can't think of one, yet if you went back previous to their era, you would find plenty. If the talent isn't there to begin with, you are pretty much stuffed, and people are bound to look for reasons why.

I do agree 100% that some players will be stifled, that doesn't alter the fact though that overall the standard of young players coming through at the moment is poor compared to past eras. It seems that some people would sooner play young players who are average at best, if not lower than average ability, just so we can boast that we are bringing through the youth.

Wigan has been a team of the future with all it's youth talent for god knows how many years now. Fact is that if you take away Robinson and Briscoe, we haven't released anybody of a good standard.

I'm not saying that clubs are right to look for the quick fix and look short term, however if the young guys coming through are not good enough, what are you supoosed to do?

This discussion won't go very far because you seem to believe that we are producing some quality players it seems who are not getting their chance, Ashton showed he was good enough and he got his chance, it just shows as a reminder to the rest.

[cpwigan]

Dave you have cracked it

Sport is always viewed in the short term

Relegation / promotion will not alter that one iota

You hear people talk about the NRL. It's bull. The Aussies as ever did it right. They got the supply side (player development) right before they went to a cap. The Aussies have a surplus of quality players. We are in a mess, we do not have the players to give the opportunities to even if th relegation issue was a panacea that some are now proclaiming. Loook at Dobson, cannot play first grade in the NRL yet good enough for 2 SL clubs and regularly rated one of the best in SL.

You say players will get developed. A club was safe from relegation. They had a teenage centre and a teenage prop. They named them in the 20, then dropped them. They played a retiring winger, a forward they knew they were letting go. RELEGATION or the absence of the threat did not change anything. The Chairman has said we need to start next season getting results, no mention of developing players, long term

SPORT is rooted in the short term

[Doveoverdave]

GeoffN posted:

ChrisA posted:

Genuinly talented young players make there way through if they really are good enough. It makes it look like we are stifling the young players, when the real reason is that 95% of the young players just aren't good enough, and never will be

Dave's already countered most of your points, but I'd just like to pick up on this one: which is true in any sport.
At the moment, only a handful of clubs (those who are normally not under threat of relegation, which is no coincidence) produce players in any numbers.
Three or four times as many clubs with academies like ours or Leeds would produce 3 or 4 times as many youngsters, of which maybe 5% would still make it to the top. But 5% of, say, 200, instead of 50.

This is patentley not true.

The game is just not played in any depth at all through out the country and where it is the kids want away.

There is a wealth of talent (supposedly) in Cumbria but these lads will not play up there because they have their sights on bigger and better things - so they come to Wigan (for example) and become a Wigan youngster, prospect, talent of find.

How are Haven, Workington expected to find the youngsters.Same could be said of Salford - a stones throw away from Wigan.

Simple fact is that the game has not got a broad enough appeal to get the lads from Cornwall, Kent, Shropshire or even Bolton and Preston!!!!!!!

[cpwigan]

What I will maintain is this. The talent is out there. Now even if we take Wigan, one of the few places where the junior scene is reasonable, there are still large numbers of youngsters out there who are not discovered, in part because they rarely have the opportunity to play the game and/or when they do, coaches are more concerned with results now than thinking of the future and developing the players properly. That's the scenario in Wigan but it is woeful in other so called RL towns.

Times have changed. Just to maintain a status quo with the production of players from say the 60's you would have to do far far more to create the opportunities to gets youngsters playing and so forth. Go back in time and towns were dominated by factories / businesses that employed hundreds / thousands from the same town and whatsmore they had social / recreational teams. That's gone. Church sports / recreation has declined and so on.

Even going back players were often lucky to become part of rugby league. Vinty Karalius spent a large part of his youth playing football as a goalkeeper. Bill Ashurst was a footballer too.

[DaveO]

ChrisA posted:
Dress it up how you want to Geoff, if they are genuinely good enough, they will force their way through.

I think you missed Geoff's point completely.

How can they be good enough if they don't exist? Wigan have a youth development system so have the potential to produce SL standard players.

But a lot of clubs do not have such a system so there isn't any chance of players forcing themselves through from those clubs because they don't have any on the books!

Fact is that the majority aren't, and it's just easier for most people to look for some other excuse.

Teams having no youth development at all is not an excuse it's a reason.

Name me a player who has come through in recent history who could even come close to being compared to the likes of Hanley, or Gregory etc, players who you think you will look back and think, they where truly world class.

Who is on about producing stars like that? I am on about producing SL standard players instead of signing Kolpaks.

But since you mention it if we produced more SL standard players surely there is more chance of uncovering the next Hanley or Gregory (neither of who came through our set up of course)?

I can't think of one, yet if you went back previous to their era, you would find plenty. If the talent isn't there to begin with, you are pretty much stuffed, and people are bound to look for reasons why.

Exactly and one of the reasons is that the the talent literally is not there because some clubs don't have any development at all.

I do agree 100% that some players will be stifled, that doesn't alter the fact though that overall the standard of young players coming through at the moment is poor compared to past eras. It seems that some people would sooner play young players who are average at best, if not lower than average ability, just so we can boast that we are bringing through the youth.

I don't see why that follows. I could say some people would rather play Kolpak players who are average at best rather than try and bring on a UK player. In fact several clubs do this. The vast majority of Kolpak players fit your description to a tee.

Wigan has been a team of the future with all it's youth talent for god knows how many years now. Fact is that if you take away Robinson and Briscoe, we haven't released anybody of a good standard.

Whether players released are superstars or not does not get away from the fact there are plenty of players knocking about in SL who either played for Wigan or were produced by Wigan. Players like Brown, Aspwinall, Wild, Tickle, Hodgson, Robinson and Briscoe all might not meet your criteria of great players but they get first team slots in their sides. Why are other clubs ex young players not featuring the same way? It is because they don't produce any.

I'm not saying that clubs are right to look for the quick fix and look short term, however if the young guys coming through are not good enough, what are you supposed to do?

This discussion won't go very far because you seem to believe that we are producing some quality players it seems who are not getting their chance, Ashton showed he was good enough and he got his chance, it just shows as a reminder to the rest.

Wigan are probably doing exactly as Monie said, graduating three or four at most young players from the U21 squad to the first team.

The problem is other teams are not doing this and it isn't because their young players are not good enough but because they don't have anyplayers to graduate.

Dave

[Neil In Wigan]

So, talking about bringing players through the system, if the RFL in their wisdom decide to take the SL towards Cardiff, Dublin etc, how will that aid youth development as they aren't going to do that in areas that haven't got any history of RL. If they aren't going to develop players in the heartland areas of the sport, there is no chance on earth that they will do so in other areas, is there? And if you take that as a primary reason for inclusion into SL, you'll be left with about 6 teams.

[cpwigan]

Very true Neil, running before they can walk.

[Matthew]

cpwigan posted:
You say players will get developed. A club was safe from relegation. They had a teenage centre and a teenage prop. They named them in the 20, then dropped them. They played a retiring winger, a forward they knew they were letting go.

I can see both sides of the argument - however I think that this is a little unfair. The "retiring winger" was a player that had given his heart and soul to the club - the player that was dropped to accomodate him was another Australian (regardless of what his passport might say).

As there was nothing riding on the game (and he was probably the best player available in the position anyway) why not let him have a send off where he can say goodbye to the fans?

If anyone deserved a send off (and for the record I thought that Godwin did too) it was Brett Dallas

[cpwigan]

I agree Matthew. In a way I'm being devils advocate and tongue in cheek with that comment. However, seriously, DV could have been dropped to let Goulding have a game, Fielden for O'Carroll. Just making the point that nothing was riding on that game yet Wigan did not take the view let's give the youngsters a game.

Catalan have 3 years of no relegation yet they went out and signed Stacey Jones. Even when he got injured they replaced him with a short term Aussie rather than develop a French player.

[GeoffN]

ChrisA posted:
Name me a player who has come through in recent history who could even come close to being compared to the likes of Hanley, or Gregory etc, players who you think you will look back and think, they where truely world class. I can't think of one, yet if you went back previous to their era, you would find plenty.

As Dave says, we're not really talking about "greatness", but about SL standard.
Having said that, you can really only call a player "great" towards the end of their career; in which category I'd put players like Farrell, Fielden & Radlinski.