EU ?

[medlocke]

It is not the 70's anymore FFS, it is a different world now, the world was a closed off place back then, today it is a completely open place, people need to stop living in the past, why stay in a clique of 28 when you can play with 168, it's not rocket science, a vote out is a vote for our prosperous future

[DaveO]

If we were not an EU member country would we all vote to be part of it? Part of bailing other country's economy's out at the expense of ours?

I've seen a big decline in this country over the past 10-15 years everything seems to be unsustainable .

What has that got to do with the EU? If as predicted we are economically worse off out of the EU with even less money to spend on the NHS etc who will you blame then? The EU again?

Probably!

The vote remain lot accusing the leave voters of racism, non tolarence of foreigners, little England types this is clutching at straws to win an arguement....bring out the race card, well it doesn't wash anymore people are sick to death of hearing about it. Accusing vote leave folk of this is galvanising there votes too leave, because believe it or not the left wingers are not equal in there views anyway.

There has been a deliberate stocking up of fears over immigration by UKIP in particular and if yo ca't see it you are blind.

It's very little different from blaming the Jews for all the ill's of Germany in the 1930's. That poster they out out last week was strikingly similar to one the Nazi's hung up in Germany.

I vote to leave, and I want independence.

You are not going to get it. The UK doesn't exist in isolation. There is no such thing as absolute sovereignty of any nation.

What do you think is going to happen? The UK will say "Trade with us under our rules or else"? Or else what?

[DaveO]

Lots of stuff that was wide of the target

Each and every month, I come across several people exactly like you who breeze into my world telling me about their understanding of how the rules/regulations/law applies, and just how right they are and how it all works. I often find that no amount of trying to tell them that they are wrong actually dents their confidence in their analyses. As far as they are concerned they’ve looked it all up, they are absolutely correct and they just want me to confirm their understanding. On the whole, these people are the ones who will read a 2000-word document, and pick out the 50 words that seem to support their opinion, ignoring all the rest. Much of this is down to the fact that they have no formal knowledge on the subject matter and the application of it.

And you have? How very patronising of you. You obviously think you are the only one who can research a subject and draw the right conclusions.

What are your opinions on the expertise of the leaders of the leave campaign such as Gove (English graduate), Farage who was a trader on the London Metal Exchange and Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson (studied Classics)? Ditto Cameron, Corbyn and the Remain leadership. I am sure the world awaits your opinion on their qualifications to come out with what they do.

My responses to assertions put on here made by those on the leave side are made whenever I see anyone coming out with something completely incorrect or as often happens being very selective with the truth or just oversimplifying matters (especially over trade or notions of sovereignty/democracy). Neither do ny responses just come off the top of my head and if you bothered to research them you would find they are based on fact not fiction.

[Owd Codger]

What has come across to me following my recent holiday to the South Coast and other recent travels is that many people in areas where there are large numbers of immigrants appear to want 'Out' of the EU, but in areas where there is not the same levels of immigration, people appear to want to 'Stay In.

Yet, some say the main issue in the referendum has nothing to do with the high level of immigration into our small country which is already showing signs that the system is not coping with the situation and it is out of control.

What the referendum is showing is that there is deep discontentment in the country about how many people are being allow into the country, the lack of Government leadership in dealing with the issue and the the direction the country is heading in the future, especially where future religion is concerned.

[i'm spartacus]

Lots of stuff that was wide of the target

Each and every month, I come across several people exactly like you who breeze into my world telling me about their understanding of how the rules/regulations/law applies, and just how right they are and how it all works. I often find that no amount of trying to tell them that they are wrong actually dents their confidence in their analyses. As far as they are concerned they’ve looked it all up, they are absolutely correct and they just want me to confirm their understanding. On the whole, these people are the ones who will read a 2000-word document, and pick out the 50 words that seem to support their opinion, ignoring all the rest. Much of this is down to the fact that they have no formal knowledge on the subject matter and the application of it.

And you have?

And is that anymore patronising that writing 'bollocks' instead of coming up with a reasonable response?

And a matter of fact, yes I do have a formal education and knowledge on the matter of EU/English law.

[i'm spartacus]

A great deal has now been written on the economic consequences for the UK in the event of a vote to leave. Some of this is impartial; much of it is partisan. However, very little has been written on the consequences for the rest of the EU. The remainers have been quick to point out that the free trade we now enjoy will come to an end with a protectionist EU imposing tariffs on all UK exports to the EU, but very few, if any, have turned the argument about face and considered what would happen if the UK imposed reciprocal tariffs on EU exports to the UK. The remainers have pointed out that 44% of UK exports go into the EU, whilst only 10% of EU exports go to the UK. This on the face of it seems to suggest that we are more reliant on them than they are on us. However, the size of the UK export market is £45 billion, whilst the size of the EU export market is €1.8 trillion: So there is significantly more shipped into the UK from the EU than the other way around. This suggests that the tit for tat imposition of tariffs on imports would hurt the businesses in the EU far more than it would hurt us, and that tariffs on EU imports would massively offset any tariffs imposed on UK exports.


The original premise of the EU was a common market, aimed at removing trade barriers and promoting business which leads to more prosperous European societies. Certain politicians from other countries seem to suggest that there will be no free trade deal with the UK in the event we vote to leave, but these politicians do not represent all the member states or the EU Commission who are ultimately responsible for any UK – EU trade deals post Brexit. The question arising from this is why would an organisation, predicated on removing barriers and promoting trade, would want to carry out actions that are against its stated primary objective. The answer is that this is unlikely to happen due the potential risks to the EU itself; and what would be that risk if the EU does decide to ‘make an example’ of the UK as has been suggested in some quarters.

• Dutch firms exported €42bn in goods and €7bn in services into the UK 2013. It has among the most intensive financial sector links to the UK with bank loans totalling €236bn in 2014.
  Ireland exported €14.8bn of goods and €5.8bn of services to the UK in 2013, the equivalent of almost 12% of GDP and substantially higher than any other member state.
  Sweden exported €9bn in goods and €2bn in services in 2013, equivalent to 2.5% of GDP.
  Belgium enjoys strong trade links with UK, exporting €24bn in goods and €3bn in services during 2013, equivalent to 6.8% of GDP in total.
  German manufacturers alone exported €67.5bn to the UK or 2.4% of GDP. Germany is also a significant exporter of services, particularly business services, which amounted to over €4.1bn.
  Spanish exports in 2013 were €14.7bn in goods and €11.1bn in services.
  France exported €28.8bn in goods and €14.2 in services in 2013, equivalent to 2% of French GDP.
  Polish exports to the UK are significant with Poland exporting €11.2bn in 2013, the equivalent of 2.8% of GDP.

It is not in the interests, of an organisation predicated on free trade, to damage that trade against the best interests of its members; which is exactly what will happen should the EU choose to embark on the fool’s errand which is failing to keep a free trade agreement. A vote to leave is also likely to feed into the EU scepticism of other EU members because the tensions in the UK regarding the EU, also exist in other states, even if they manifest themselves to different extents. If the UK leaves and adopts a more independent policy, this could have far-reaching consequences for the rest of Europe and its dream of ever closer union.

[Wes]

Great post Spartacus!!

[Owd Codger]

I agreed and factual in regard to how much we are importing from other countries in Europe, especially now in manufactured goods which thanks to Thatcher destroying our major manufacturing industries in her anti trade union vendetta has led to our situation of importing more than we export.

Thankfully we have the cheap labour tourist industry to help our situation!

[jobo]

If anyone is in favour of leaving then that's fair enough but please do not delude yourself and look for economic reasons to justify your stance. Leaving will cost us big time, end of chat.

[jobo]

A great deal has now been written on the economic consequences for the UK in the event of a vote to leave. Some of this is impartial; much of it is partisan. However, very little has been written on the consequences for the rest of the EU. The remainers have been quick to point out that the free trade we now enjoy will come to an end with a protectionist EU imposing tariffs on all UK exports to the EU, but very few, if any, have turned the argument about face and considered what would happen if the UK imposed reciprocal tariffs on EU exports to the UK. The remainers have pointed out that 44% of UK exports go into the EU, whilst only 10% of EU exports go to the UK. This on the face of it seems to suggest that we are more reliant on them than they are on us. However, the size of the UK export market is £45 billion, whilst the size of the EU export market is €1.8 trillion: So there is significantly more shipped into the UK from the EU than the other way around. This suggests that the tit for tat imposition of tariffs on imports would hurt the businesses in the EU far more than it would hurt us, and that tariffs on EU imports would massively offset any tariffs imposed on UK exports.


The original premise of the EU was a common market, aimed at removing trade barriers and promoting business which leads to more prosperous European societies. Certain politicians from other countries seem to suggest that there will be no free trade deal with the UK in the event we vote to leave, but these politicians do not represent all the member states or the EU Commission who are ultimately responsible for any UK – EU trade deals post Brexit. The question arising from this is why would an organisation, predicated on removing barriers and promoting trade, would want to carry out actions that are against its stated primary objective. The answer is that this is unlikely to happen due the potential risks to the EU itself; and what would be that risk if the EU does decide to ‘make an example’ of the UK as has been suggested in some quarters.

• Dutch firms exported €42bn in goods and €7bn in services into the UK 2013. It has among the most intensive financial sector links to the UK with bank loans totalling €236bn in 2014.
  Ireland exported €14.8bn of goods and €5.8bn of services to the UK in 2013, the equivalent of almost 12% of GDP and substantially higher than any other member state.
  Sweden exported €9bn in goods and €2bn in services in 2013, equivalent to 2.5% of GDP.
  Belgium enjoys strong trade links with UK, exporting €24bn in goods and €3bn in services during 2013, equivalent to 6.8% of GDP in total.
  German manufacturers alone exported €67.5bn to the UK or 2.4% of GDP. Germany is also a significant exporter of services, particularly business services, which amounted to over €4.1bn.
  Spanish exports in 2013 were €14.7bn in goods and €11.1bn in services.
  France exported €28.8bn in goods and €14.2 in services in 2013, equivalent to 2% of French GDP.
  Polish exports to the UK are significant with Poland exporting €11.2bn in 2013, the equivalent of 2.8% of GDP.

It is not in the interests, of an organisation predicated on free trade, to damage that trade against the best interests of its members; which is exactly what will happen should the EU choose to embark on the fool’s errand which is failing to keep a free trade agreement. A vote to leave is also likely to feed into the EU scepticism of other EU members because the tensions in the UK regarding the EU, also exist in other states, even if they manifest themselves to different extents. If the UK leaves and adopts a more independent policy, this could have far-reaching consequences for the rest of Europe and its dream of ever closer union.

Leaving doesn't make economic sense, so what's to stop the remaining countries in the eu from doing something equally as illogical and telling us to f.off regardless of the consequences?