EU ?

[SJ]

Agreed. Your posts are always informative and ecellently written

Thanks IS.

[SJ]

For the avoidance of doubt my last post was to agree with Wes re his praise of IS's post

[Wiganer Ted]

A good post from Sparticus.

I'm sure those figures mentioned are correct but it doesn't take into account that trade will continue after Leave and imposition of tariffs and duties but at a reduced level.

There are also the political repercusions.
Listening to journos from our media who work in Europe and Europeans who work in the UK they all mention the one word "contagion". The EU doesn't want any more countries thinking about breaking away so therefore the UK will not get any kind of favourable trade deal from the EU which would look attractive to other nations.
Quite the opposite, the deal that will be offered, it is said, will be punative and brutal so much so that no other EU country will even think twice about leaving when they see the trade conditions imposed on us.

The idea that the UK will continue to trade freely with the EU after Leave is blatantly untrue. The Remainers know it and the Leavers know it.

We had tariffs and duties with the Common Market before we joined and we will have them after we leave.
The economic hit on the UK will be massive if we Leave and we are stupid beyond belief to be the only country to Leave. If we were to Leave we should have other countries coming with us. We joined with five other countries (EFTA members) and we should Leave along with others. Otherwise stay in. There is no economic argument for Leaving and we shouldn't. Not alone anyway.

This country was on its economic knees before we joined and we are now the 5th largest economy in the World. There is only one reason for that transformation, being a member of the EU.
Our economy has grown massively with us being in the EU. It most certainly won't if we leave.

[Wes]

If anyone is in favour of leaving then that's fair enough but please do not delude yourself and look for economic reasons to justify your stance. Leaving will cost us big time, end of chat.

What an arrogant and ignorant response.

This guy seems to think we'll do ok outside the EU https://youtu.be/m6JsrxXhCEc

End of chat hahaha such arrogance.

Whenever the remainders can't nullify or offer justified responses it comes down to playing the small minded ignorant card.

IMO whichever decision wins I wish us as a nation the best of luck because my bottom line is I want us as a nation to prosper in every area.

[Wes]

A good post from Sparticus.

I'm sure those figures mentioned are correct but it doesn't take into account that trade will continue after Leave and imposition of tariffs and duties but at a reduced level.

There are also the political repercusions.
Listening to journos from our media who work in Europe and Europeans who work in the UK they all mention the one word "contagion". The EU doesn't want any more countries thinking about breaking away so therefore the UK will not get any kind of favourable trade deal from the EU which would look attractive to other nations.
Quite the opposite, the deal that will be offered, it is said, will be punative and brutal so much so that no other EU country will even think twice about leaving when they see the trade conditions imposed on us.

The idea that the UK will continue to trade freely with the EU after Leave is blatantly untrue. The Remainers know it and the Leavers know it.

We had tariffs and duties with the Common Market before we joined and we will have them after we leave.
The economic hit on the UK will be massive if we Leave and we are stupid beyond belief to be the only country to Leave. If we were to Leave we should have other countries coming with us. We joined with five other countries (EFTA members) and we should Leave along with others. Otherwise stay in. There is no economic argument for Leaving and we shouldn't. Not alone anyway.

This country was on its economic knees before we joined and we are now the 5th largest economy in the World. There is only one reason for that transformation, being a member of the EU.
Our economy has grown massively with us being in the EU. It most certainly won't if we leave.

I think you are correct they will try to set an example however think of the negative impact it will have on the EU economy when we reciprocate and give the EU a raw deal to trade with the UK they export more to us than we do to them!! Also think about the countries that would line up to trade with the UK in the EU's place ie if Germany want to penalise us for buying bananas then surely well buy them cheaper from another nation outside the EU now before you bang on about legislation and trade agreements if it is financially viable to both countries I'm sure a new trade agreement will be reached to allow trade. It's hardly rocket science. The EU has failed countries massively look at the position Greece are in now, they are almost a 1/3rd world state IN EU. France are now discussing there position within the EU and a lot of talk is about them fighting for a referendum to leave.

I always ask 1 question, if we where not in the EU at the moment and this was a referendum asking us if we would like to join the EU, would you?

[medlocke]

If anyone is in favour of leaving then that's fair enough but please do not delude yourself and look for economic reasons to justify your stance. Leaving will cost us big time, end of chat.

WoW, Really, so it's not all going to be sunbeams and rainbows :eusa4: , do you think we don't know this, for some reason all you Bremainers seem to be focusing on economics, we've just gone through 5 years of austerity cuts, our economy is already banjaxed, add to that the brilliant zero hours contracts, plus uncontrolled immigration which have all resulted in 1.4 MILLION people relying on food banks, we are already seriously knackered within your precious 4th Reich, You Bremainers really do take the biscuit, your condescending sometimes arrogant attitude towards us Brexiteers is a joke, I think it is disgusting that some of you have called us uneducated racist bigots on this site in this thread, if you are happy with foreign rapists, murderers and kiddy fiddlers to walk our streets freely then then vote yes, voting out is the only way to sort out the mess our nation is currently in, why be happy being trading in a clique of 28 when we can be trading with the entire world without the 4th reichs interference, are you really happy living in something thought up by Adolph Hitler

[Wes]

If anyone is in favour of leaving then that's fair enough but please do not delude yourself and look for economic reasons to justify your stance. Leaving will cost us big time, end of chat.

WoW, Really, so it's not all going to be sunbeams and rainbows :eusa4: , do you think we don't know this, for some reason all you Bremainers seem to be focusing on economics, we've just gone through 5 years of austerity cuts, our economy is already banjaxed, add to that the brilliant zero hours contracts, plus uncontrolled immigration which have all resulted in 1.4 MILLION people relying on food banks, we are already seriously knackered within your precious 4th Reich, You Bremainers really do take the biscuit, your condescending sometimes arrogant attitude towards us Brexiteers is a joke, I think it is disgusting that some of you have called us uneducated racist bigots on this site in this thread, if you are happy with foreign rapists, murderers and kiddy fiddlers to walk our streets freely then then vote yes, voting out is the only way to sort out the mess our nation is currently in, why be happy being trading in a clique of 28 when we can be trading with the entire world without the 4th reichs interference, are you really happy living in something thought up by Adolph Hitler

:eusa2: The only reason we aren't on our knees ala Greece is because for now we can still set our own interest rates.

[DaveO]

What has come across to me following my recent holiday to the South Coast and other recent travels is that many people in areas where there are large numbers of immigrants appear to want 'Out' of the EU, but in areas where there is not the same levels of immigration, people appear to want to 'Stay In.

Curiously I read something recently that said areas with the highest anti-immigrant feeling were those working class areas with hardly any migrants in there. Make of that what you will.

Yet, some say the main issue in the referendum has nothing to do with the high level of immigration into our small country which is already showing signs that the system is not coping with the situation and it is out of control.

A central issue is migration because many people perceive what you say above such as "is not coping with the situation" when there is no evidence this is the case.

I read on one comments page the other day someone was voting Leave because their daughter could not get a place in their preferred school. What a load of piffle that was and a fine example of immigrants being blamed for issues they did not cause.

If you bothered to read the thread I started a while back specifically about immigration, lifted from someone else's excellent research backed up by facts with links, I am not sure why you would be of the above opinion.

Unless you are not interested in facts for some reason.

What the referendum is showing is that there is deep discontentment in the country about how many people are being allow into the country, the lack of Government leadership in dealing with the issue and the the direction the country is heading in the future, especially where future religion is concerned.

What the referendum is showing is Leave is pandering to people's fear and in some cases prejudices over migration. They talk of "project fear" for Reman over the economy but since about week one Leave's strategy has been to exaggerate the migration issue and hang the consequences (in my view Jo Cox being one).

What it also shows is referenda are the last way a country should decide to do anything. These issues are complex and far too few people are prepared to bother to look past the slogans for the actual facts.

People will be voting on gut instinct that they think the country is overrun with foreigners, we are ruled by Brussels, the Eu is anti-democratic etc when if they bothered to look they would find this is far from the truth and regardless of in or out, the UK will be making compromises and deals that will limit our so called sovereignty.

I think the most bizarre aspect for me is suddenly Gove, Farage and Johnson want to paint themselves as the workers and NHS friends and Labour Leave high-ups have actually gone on TV and said they don't think a Tory government outside of the EU would rip up workers rights or go after the NHS. Truly bizarre since they have been ripping up what they can steadily and wrecking the NHS since taking office!

[DaveO]

I think you are correct they will try to set an example however think of the negative impact it will have on the EU economy when we reciprocate and give the EU a raw deal to trade with the UK they export more to us than we do to them!

Under WTO rules we will not be able to impose tariffs on goods exported to the EU that comply with international standards.

The EU because the single market is an RTA can (and does) impose tariffs on countries outside the EU. Unless those countries agree to all the rules of the Single Market such as free movement of Labour as does Norway.

The Leaver "logic" that is basically calling the EU's bluff as in "they need us more than we need them" is nonsense.

The WTO rules allow them to impose tariffs and they will so as to treat us no differently than any other non-EU country and same WTO rules do not allow us to retaliate.

The EU is our largest single export market and we export more to Luxemburg alone than to India (or it maybe Chine - its one of the two, can't remember). We are not theirs.

! Also think about the countries that would line up to trade with the UK in the EU's place ie if Germany want to penalise us for buying bananas then surely well buy them cheaper from another nation outside the EU now before you bang on about legislation and trade agreements if it is financially viable to both countries I'm sure a new trade agreement will be reached to allow trade.

No EU country will sign a separate trade deal with the UK in their own right. It's either trade under WTO rules with the EU as a whole and face tariffs or negotiate entry to the single market again. I doubt the EU will be keen to grant that but if they do, it will be under the same rules as now, free movement of labour etc because those are the rules of the Single Market.

It's hardly rocket science.

No, its economics and you don't seem to understand some of the fundamental principles that govern world trade and trade with the EU.

The best you have got is the "It'll be alright on the night" UKIP strategy based on the falsehood that we will be imposing tariffs if they do and that they actually will bend over backwards to accommodate us due in my view to your over inflated view as to how important we are to them as a market.

The EU has failed countries massively look at the position Greece are in now, they are almost a 1/3rd world state IN EU. France are now discussing there position within the EU and a lot of talk is about them fighting for a referendum to leave.

Greece failed itself by lying to get into the Eurozone. Why the accountancy firm whose name escapes me who helped them cook the books hasn't had every partner lobbed in is prison I really don't know. Yes the EU should have seen it coming but this has nothing to do how the EU deals with us and I don't believe these corocdile tears for Greece anyway.

I always ask 1 question, if we where not in the EU at the moment and this was a referendum asking us if we would like to join the EU, would you?

It's a rather stupid question because had we been outside the EU you have no idea what our economic situation would be.

Given we have been in it for decades and our economy is what it is, you cannot infer we would be in exactly the same position and asking that question from the same basis.

It's also a stupid question because that is not the one being asked tomorrow. We are in the EU and the change is if we vote to leave.

So the only sensible question is what will it be like if we do leave? And you have no answer to that.

[ian.birchall]

What has come across to me following my recent holiday to the South Coast and other recent travels is that many people in areas where there are large numbers of immigrants appear to want 'Out' of the EU, but in areas where there is not the same levels of immigration, people appear to want to 'Stay In.

Curiously I read something recently that said areas with the highest anti-immigrant feeling were those working class areas with hardly any migrants in there. Make of that what you will.

Yet, some say the main issue in the referendum has nothing to do with the high level of immigration into our small country which is already showing signs that the system is not coping with the situation and it is out of control.

A central issue is migration because many people perceive what you say above such as "is not coping with the situation" when there is no evidence this is the case.

I read on one comments page the other day someone was voting Leave because their daughter could not get a place in their preferred school. What a load of piffle that was and a fine example of immigrants being blamed for issues they did not cause.

If you bothered to read the thread I started a while back specifically about immigration, lifted from someone else's excellent research backed up by facts with links, I am not sure why you would be of the above opinion.

Unless you are not interested in facts for some reason.

What the referendum is showing is that there is deep discontentment in the country about how many people are being allow into the country, the lack of Government leadership in dealing with the issue and the the direction the country is heading in the future, especially where future religion is concerned.

What the referendum is showing is Leave is pandering to people's fear and in some cases prejudices over migration. They talk of "project fear" for Reman over the economy but since about week one Leave's strategy has been to exaggerate the migration issue and hang the consequences (in my view Jo Cox being one).

What it also shows is referenda are the last way a country should decide to do anything. These issues are complex and far too few people are prepared to bother to look past the slogans for the actual facts.

People will be voting on gut instinct that they think the country is overrun with foreigners, we are ruled by Brussels, the Eu is anti-democratic etc when if they bothered to look they would find this is far from the truth and regardless of in or out, the UK will be making compromises and deals that will limit our so called sovereignty.

I think the most bizarre aspect for me is suddenly Gove, Farage and Johnson want to paint themselves as the workers and NHS friends and Labour Leave high-ups have actually gone on TV and said they don't think a Tory government outside of the EU would rip up workers rights or go after the NHS. Truly bizarre since they have been ripping up what they can steadily and wrecking the NHS since taking office!

You are suffering delusions DaveO.
48% of the staff who work in the NHS have no medical knowledge or training so hopefully they are not doing any medical treatment. So that is more than half a million people working in non front line and in no other business under financial pressures from ever increasing demand as we all get older and newer more life prolonging but more expensive medicines/ procedures would there not be staff reductions in these areas with the savings being transferred and used on front line services.