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Stev0 posted:

robjoenz posted:

turf posted:
Does he take it out on the teams that he referees on a Friday?

I don't think he takes it out on teams... I thought he looked tired and if anything missed things he should have got.

I agree with you he did look tired. At one point an incident happened on the ball (didn't see it fully as it was in the opposite corner) and i looked to KK for a response and he was running back to the defensive line with his back to play. He obviously knew something had gone on with the crowds reaction but he was totally oblivious to what it was. Are they not trained to back peddle like players? or was he having a lazy moment and got caught napping?

I was wondering what he was watching some of the time, there were 2 or 3 occasions when he was watching players running back into line whilst the ball carrier was still being tackled. Surely his job is to watch the ball, regardless of whether the winger is still 10 yards offside but having no influence on play? I think KK needs to be reminded what forward passes are as well, there were loads of very blatent forwards going on in both directions, we seemed to throw more out as the game went on having noticed that was ignoring all of the Hudds' forward passes.

robjoenz posted:

Again if the referee warns the players often enough and they over stept te mark again I don't see why fans see this as inconsistant. If the ref issue penalties seemingly at random penalising lying on one minute and not the next then that is what I think gets fans wound up.

Fans do see this as inconsistent as they don't usually realise that the referee may have warned players previously.

I don't agree. If a side is repeatedly penalised for lying on (for example) and then a player is sin binned the next time they do it everyone knows very well why that has happened. It's a logical progression.

What you seem to be saying is fans get annoyed by seemingly random decisions but had KK sin-binned a Hudds player after several offences had occurred that would not have been random.

I know you agree with me about the fact he should have done that and so I am not sure what you are on about as regards inconsistency.

A sin-binning is consistent with previously awarding penalties as KK did on Friday.

If you are on about penalising head shots (for example ) one minute and then not the next then yes that would annoy the fans but in the context of Friday's game KK sin-binning someone off Huuds after the umpteenth offence at the PTB would have been consistent with good refereeing IMO.

Fans have no idea that the referee is having a quiet word with the number 10 about his marginally high tackles as he walks over to form the scrum. Number 10's next tackle is marginally high, a penalty is given and the fans call it penalising at random.

The sequence of events you describe above is entirely consistent with good refereeing to my mind.

If a player does a high shot, gets away with it (in the eyes of the fans) and then cops a penalty for doing the same again then to me that seems quite a normal and expected sequence of events.

Its another progression along the way to getting penalised.

What annoys people is seeing a high shot given a penalty and then another equally bad perhaps almost identical one being let go.

In addition, most fans see many incidents in black and white when they aren't... e.g. the winger on the opposite side of the field to play is stood 3 yards offside. The fans call for a penalty, the referee is actually waiting for that player to interfere with play before he gives the penalty. If there's no interference there's no penalty, the majority of fans don't see that though.

I agree with that but this whole discussion started about KK's performance on Friday and his lack of use of the yellow card. It came across to me you were saying because he had not used the yellow card early on for lying on had he used it later then he could be accused of being inconsistent.

If that is not what you mean we have been talking at crossed purposes.

I think the inconsistency charge arises when a ref goes out whistle happy for the first 10 mins and then stops blowing for the same penalties. I know the argument is they are stamping their authority on the game but they just look silly if they give up on policing the game having come out like that.

...but in your previous post you said that the referee ought to change his style to suit the changing style of the game.

If the same offences are being committed then the style of the game has not changed. That is the point. The ref penalises certain offences from the outset then gives up on them with no change in attitude from the players.

Dave

I agree with Rob about trying to play the advantage and let the game flow as regards offside BUT one trick I learned in my limited refereeing experience was to shout out the verbal warnings. If they ignored them for the early tackles in a set I would penalise them at the end of the set. You ask teams to make repeats sets of tackles and they soon start staying onside.

Flash posted:

What you have suggested is that referee not be consistent throughout the game Dave. Many would disagree with you (Flash comes to mind Wink ). However, I do think you have a point.

Booo! Misrepresentation..yellow card for Rob!

Some stats on the number of yellow and red cards each ref has given in his career:
http://www.slstats.org.uk/?function=refs

Perhaps unsurprisingly, Ganson tops the list of cards per game, and KK is at the bottom (of the most experienced refs), but the comparisons help to show how different each referee is in his interpretation of the game. Ganson gives out roughly double the number of cards per game that more lenient referees like Silverwood & Klein give.

GeoffN posted:
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Ganson tops the list of cards per game, and KK is at the bottom (of the most experienced refs), but the comparisons help to show how different each referee is in his interpretation of the game. Ganson gives out roughly double the number of cards per game that more lenient referees like Silverwood & Klein give.

Interesting and if this is known by coaches and players they will know they can get away with more v cert an refs. Given the post match analysis that is done these days I would not be surprised if coaches briefed players about the ref.

Dave

DaveO posted:

GeoffN posted:
Perhaps unsurprisingly, Ganson tops the list of cards per game, and KK is at the bottom (of the most experienced refs), but the comparisons help to show how different each referee is in his interpretation of the game. Ganson gives out roughly double the number of cards per game that more lenient referees like Silverwood & Klein give.

Interesting and if this is known by coaches and players they will know they can get away with more v cert an refs. Given the post match analysis that is done these days I would not be surprised if coaches briefed players about the ref.

Dave

I'd certainly hope that's the case. I was also impressed by the fact that we're the least "carded" club in SL! Only 2 yellows and no reds. One I remember was Danny Orr's try-saver, but anyone remember the other? I know it was Godwin, but can't remember the occasion.

I would like to see alot more advantage played, but what happened to warning the captains at a break of play and saying if they persitently infringe or blantantly do, to be more accurate, he will go to his pocket.

If it isn't blatant then it goes on report. Too many incidents are put on report and because it is only a minor infringement they get away with it.

This allows players to persistently infringe and it makes referees seem a joke. I still see no proper useful help from TJ's either or even referred to on a consistent basis, even if they have a clearer view than the ref!

These inconsistencies are why there is a vast contrast between Ganson and KK and we can't blame the refs but the instructions given at the top by Cummings and the way the referees governing body is run.

This in all shows how amateur they are and it's about time something was done about it. Looking at it from a ref's point of view, i don't blame Russell Smith for going to Aus!

robjoenz posted:

In addition, most fans see many incidents in black and white when they aren't... e.g. the winger on the opposite side of the field to play is stood 3 yards offside. The fans call for a penalty, the referee is actually waiting for that player to interfere with play before he gives the penalty. If there's no interference there's no penalty, the majority of fans don't see that though.

Well this is still an age old adage of interfering with play and the interpretation, refs in both codes and offsides in football state that if a player is not interfering with play they are not offside.

But surely if your on the pitch your interfering with play??? If you have an injured player on the deck you deem that interfering with play but with an offside not even though it's not the same side of the field as play.

Same as the offside line obligations of ten metres which again is an inconsistency across the board and if you are not adhering to that interfering or not with direct play you are offside anyway so why not the same with a kick?

I understand like most people that it's never clear cut black and white but the interpretations are what anger fans and as much as the refs trying to allow play to develop until there maybe interference, if that player is offside they should be penalised simple as.

DaveO posted:I agree with that but this whole discussion started about KK's performance on Friday and his lack of use of the yellow card. It came across to me you were saying because he had not used the yellow card early on for lying on had he used it later then he could be accused of being inconsistent.

If that is not what you mean we have been talking at crossed purposes.

We had crossed wires! I was saying KK should have had a word with the captains and then used the yellow card if required.

I was talking about refereeing in general when talking about consistency.

DaveO also posted: If the same offences are being committed then the style of the game has not changed. That is the point. The ref penalises certain offences from the outset then gives up on them with no change in attitude from the players.

What I have noticed that annoys fans the most is when a penalty early on is given for a marginal offence and then the game calms down. Then in the second half a very similar offence is committed but the referee lets it go giving the player the benefit of the doubt. He's trying to accomodate for the change in how the game is played but fans just compare everything as if they're exactly the same.

stevocod posted:
But surely if your on the pitch your interfering with play??? If you have an injured player on the deck you deem that interfering with play but with an offside not even though it's not the same side of the field as play.

An injured player isn't interfering with play unless the ball goes near him (not his fault). Even then it's not a penalty, but the ball is taken back to the previous play-the-ball.

I understand like most people that it's never clear cut black and white but the interpretations are what anger fans and as much as the refs trying to allow play to develop until there maybe interference, if that player is offside they should be penalised simple as.

The interpretations anger fans only when the decision goes against their team. You can look at a lot of offsides, for example, and make a case for it being given or not being given and the majority of fans will take the reason why it shouldn't go against their side. When in reality the referee will have given it for a very good reason.

You can't say if a player is out of play they are offside. What about your fatty prop making his way back the ten metres doesn't get back quick enough for a quick play-the-ball. Or when a tackling player can't get out of the way fast enough. It wouldn't be fair to penalise that, plus you'd quickly lose the respect of the players.