Brexit UK vote to leave Europe in historic referendum

[cpwigan]

Se that it's in tomorrows newspapers that the People challenginge Brexit have won the first part of their case today.

What are they challenging Ted?

[ian.birchall]

The three Brexiteers haven't a plan and never have had one.
The real fun will start when 50 is written or the overseas multinationals start re-locating to Europe.
It's a phoney exit at present as we are still full members of the EU.

Quite right Ted and unfortunately the past 13 weeks have cost the UK taxpayer another £2.75 billion in net subscription fees.

[Wiganer Ted]

They are challenging the Gov't who say they will take us out of the EU without an Act of Parliament. The People challenging it say legally it needs an Act of Parliament to take us out of the EU just as it needed an Act to take us in.

As for nett contributions to the EU.
The IFS said our nett contributions were £5.3bn a year.
So 13 weeks would mean £1.3bn paid in.
Small change compared to the near £280bn exports a year to the EU.

[DaveO]

Out of the EU will be better in the long run. Nothing since has changed that view for me Dave. I am not sure the UK notion of carrying on as we were but no free movement was ever realistic or needed. IMO, the government need to stop thinking EU, when we finally leave we negotiate with whomever.

I'll say it again, you don't have a clue what being out of the EU means and don't even know how or by how much being out of the EU will affect net migration. So you will have no idea if we will be better off or not.

I read the following comment (in italics) from a poster Ste81 in the Guardian comments pages today following this article:

Brexit negotiations could cost tens of millions of pounds says report


I think that generally the cost of an exit from the EU is going to be massive (how I hate the meaningless term, Brexit) - not tens of millions, but billions. No matter what sort of separation from the EU happens, the UK is going to have to incorporate a massive amount of new regulations, structures to oversee it, payments to farmers, science, universities, local grants, and much much more into a UK only framework.

I know that conservation professionals, and the organizations involved in conservation and environmental regulation just have no idea what is going to happen, and how it is going to happen. Even more important is that the government has even less idea.

This is the whole issue, practicality. There is no historical precedent for this. For the last 40 odd years all UK legislation, our regulatory frameworks, grants, subsidies, the running of a vast number of departments and every area of society has been done on the basis that our future was part of the EU. This means completely re-designing and re-writing all our infrastructure and regulation from the ground up.

No one did an assessment to see what this actually involved before the referendum vote, and it appears no one has done it since, nor does it appear that there is even a plan for such an assessment. When we think off all the investigations, public inquiries etc, which drag on for years, we get a taster of what it will involve. However, the task ahead is bigger than every single one of these inquiries and investigations put together. At the very least there should have been a scoping assessment, just to get an overall idea of what it will involve. But this appears never to have happened, and amazingly it doesn't appear to be planned.

I think that media pundits, the government, politicians in general, bureaucrats, economists, and far more are massively underestimating the complexity of what will be involved, simply because no one has ever really looked at what it will involve in a coherent joined up way. We are still in magical thinking mode, where leaving the EU is some sort of fantasy, where it is only looked at from a simplistic partial view of immigration, trade, as though this is all it involves. For our leadership, media, economists etc, to look at what it involves in such a partial, incomplete and simplistic way is just bizarre. It's mad hatter stuff.

One of the ironies of the world is that the less someone knows about a field of knowledge, problem or situation, is the simpler it seems. Right to be point where being ignorant of nearly everything means that it seems incredibly simple. Hence all the pub and armchair experts on everything, who pontificate their views on everything. That our leadership is engaged in this type of ignorant thinking is Alice in Wonderland stuff on a level never seen before. The government is still stuck in this over-simplistic thinking. Only when it comes to actually planning and implementing this, will it dawn on these political fantasists what it will actually involve.

The problem in trying to plan for it is that there are so many possible scenarios. In other words it is next to impossible to assess and scope what will be necessary, because each different scenario, and there is a gigantic array of possible scenarios would require a complete joined up assessment. This is fantasy politics of a type never seen before.

Overall the situation and problem is this. No one knows how the whole system works. The system and infrastructure has not been built from the ground up with anyone who had any idea of how it all works. Instead it has been built up in a piecemeal and ad hoc way, little by little, by people and departments who only look at one tiny area of the whole system. This is probably the first time in history when a developed country has had to rebuild it's whole infrastructure, regulation etc, from scratch, from the ground up. No one knows if it is even possible, without creating chaos.

One of the real problems is the abrupt nature of it. Or put another way, there is probably going be many big gaps, where these is no regulation or framework to deal with the everyday running of our system.

It is very difficult to write a simple summary of the problem, and what solving this problem will involve. Instead the big noises come from opinionated people who just believe it will all work as an article of faith, despite never having thought the problem through.

He has it spot on. The issue is not just immigration and trade and reducing it to those two headline issues is just sweeping all the rest of the issues, which will define just as much whether it is a success or not, under the carpet.

Do you honestly trust May, Davis, BoJo and Fox not to make a complete balls up of this?

[Wandering Warrior]

The balls up was made when the pros and cons weren't presented correctly prior to the referendum and the folk that voted out hadn't got a clue where the spat out dummy was going!
We are in a great mess and nobody knows what to do!
I'm frustrated to have to keep saying this but folk I know that voted out have got their heads in the sand when it's mentioned and nothing differs on here!!

[DaveO]

The balls up was made when the pros and cons weren't presented correctly prior to the referendum and the folk that voted out hadn't got a clue where the spat out dummy was going!
We are in a great mess and nobody knows what to do!
I'm frustrated to have to keep saying this but folk I know that voted out have got their heads in the sand when it's mentioned and nothing differs on here!!

The problem is the issues are so complex even if you presented them most people would not be interested and/or not understand them. So it should never have been put to a referendum in the first place.

Reducing them to single issues like immigration (even though this issue in itself is far more complex than just shut the borders and we will be reet!) is truly a head in the sand approach.

[Wandering Warrior]

You're right what you say, the details are complex. The old adage if it's not broke don't fix it, was made to be perceived it was broke and swallowed.
The whole EU situation requires looking at and there is some good points, however it will no doubt be looked at and we'll be outside looking in.
As an adage, Diane Abbott reputedly said anyone voting out was a racist, thank god she'll never be in a position to impose her mindless agenda on the country. Furthermore as we all know, immigration is a big issue in this matter and corbyn's solution is to bring wages in line and extra funding for infrastructure most under pressure.

[SJ]

You're right what you say, the details are complex. The old adage if it's not broke don't fix it, was made to be perceived it was broke and swallowed.
The whole EU situation requires looking at and there is some good points, however it will no doubt be looked at and we'll be outside looking in.
As an adage, Diane Abbott reputedly said anyone voting out was a racist, thank god she'll never be in a position to impose her mindless agenda on the country. Furthermore as we all know, immigration is a big issue in this matter and corbyn's solution is to bring wages in line and extra funding for infrastructure most under pressure.

I find this post completely incoherent. Soon there will only be you and Dave contributing to this thread

[i'm spartacus]

Se that it's in tomorrows newspapers that the People challenginge Brexit have won the first part of their case today.

What a load of rubbish - "won the first part of their case"

The Judge made an order of disclosure requiring one side to produce their evidence to the other. This happens more often than not in every civil case, as nobody wants to show their cards until they have to. Your problem is you read the papers and believe the spin put on it by sensationalist journalistic licence.

There are a bunch of deluded individuals who want to throw a big wedge of cash at a greedy bunch of Barristers and QC's who are willing to take it off them. There will always be people who who believe they can buy the right answer.

We have an Act of Parliament already that can take us out of the EU which is exactly the same Act that put us in it. The QC's and Barristers will take the cash of the deluded, and the case will fail, leaving the deluded without their brass, and the lawyers with a healthy bank balance

[medlocke]

37 pages of bitter Bastards whining on about losing fair and square, lock it ffs Josie