Brexit UK vote to leave Europe in historic referendum

[i'm spartacus]

Sorry Spartacus as it stand the act does not. It needs to be ratified.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 05181.html

Sorry thegimble - no it wont.

I've read the entire case put forward by three academics and supported by the gentleman in the article you quote, and quite frankly the argument is fundamentally flawed from the outset. The argument starts on false premise; to quote from the article itself

"A new bill to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act that took Britain into the EU must now be passed by parliament" and

"The 1972 communities act ... is still good law and remains so until repealed. In November, Prime Minister [Boris] Johnson will have to introduce into parliament the European communities repeal bill," (he was wrong on Boris as well)

The whole argument is predicated on those statements.


The problem is in fact that there is absolutely no need to repeal the European Communities Act at all.

Section 2(1) of that Act states;

All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression “enforceable EU right” and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this subsection applies.

This is an Act past by Parliament which makes all EU treaties directly applicable as law in the UK. Article 50 is contained in the Treaty of Lisbon and is therefore directly effective law within the UK. In short the European Communities Act is an Act of Parliament which allows Article 50 to invoked, thus the constitutional requirements are already met. That Act can remain until such time as we have left the Union at which point it will be redundant.

The Government (specifically the Prime Minister) can, at the international level, use the Royal Prerogative power of foreign affairs to trigger the Article 50 process. This is because our constitutional arrangements leave it to the Government to conduct foreign affairs. Prerogative power has always contained powers relating to foreign affairs and this has historically involved the making of treaties at international level. Under the European Communities Act, the Government has used Prerogative power to sign up all of the various EU Treaties. Including those that the Labour Government signed up to after promising in 2005 that they would not transfer any more power to Brussels without a referendum

In isolation, the exiting process would be a case of conducting international affairs through the prerogative power. In this way, the Government can activate Article 50 today, tomorrow, or in ten years

[thegimble]

Sorry Spartacus as it stand the act does not. It needs to be ratified.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/po ... 05181.html

Sorry thegimble - no it wont.

I've read the entire case put forward by three academics and supported by the gentleman in the article you quote, and quite frankly the argument is fundamentally flawed from the outset. The argument starts on false premise; to quote from the article itself

"A new bill to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act that took Britain into the EU must now be passed by parliament" and

"The 1972 communities act ... is still good law and remains so until repealed. In November, Prime Minister [Boris] Johnson will have to introduce into parliament the European communities repeal bill," (he was wrong on Boris as well)

The whole argument is predicated on those statements.


The problem is in fact that there is absolutely no need to repeal the European Communities Act at all.

Section 2(1) of that Act states;

All such rights, powers, liabilities, obligations and restrictions from time to time created or arising by or under the Treaties, and all such remedies and procedures from time to time provided for by or under the Treaties, as in accordance with the Treaties are without further enactment to be given legal effect or used in the United Kingdom shall be recognised and available in law, and be enforced, allowed and followed accordingly; and the expression “enforceable EU right” and similar expressions shall be read as referring to one to which this subsection applies.

This is an Act past by Parliament which makes all EU treaties directly applicable as law in the UK. Article 50 is contained in the Treaty of Lisbon and is therefore directly effective law within the UK. In short the European Communities Act is an Act of Parliament which allows Article 50 to invoked, thus the constitutional requirements are already met. That Act can remain until such time as we have left the Union at which point it will be redundant.

The Government (specifically the Prime Minister) can, at the international level, use the Royal Prerogative power of foreign affairs to trigger the Article 50 process. This is because our constitutional arrangements leave it to the Government to conduct foreign affairs. Prerogative power has always contained powers relating to foreign affairs and this has historically involved the making of treaties at international level. Under the European Communities Act, the Government has used Prerogative power to sign up all of the various EU Treaties. Including those that the Labour Government signed up to after promising in 2005 that they would not transfer any more power to Brussels without a referendum

In isolation, the exiting process would be a case of conducting international affairs through the prerogative power. In this way, the Government can activate Article 50 today, tomorrow, or in ten years

Its not that part you quoted is the issue the issue is in the referendum bill it stated it had to go to the MP's. Problem is this could become a football and maybe deliberately to sabotage it.

They could use that is wanted to but it still going to be an issue to bypass any MP's. It such a simple thing to do. Go to the MPs give them the vote and then its clean. By using that directive May could well genuine but it could be political mess once it goes to court. And as it looks now it will and delay the process.

I voted to remain only on workers rights I would rather they got us out by 2020 now than let this become a football where we get a hung parliament. As much of a mess labour is in the Tories are not that much happier atm.

2020 is in danger of becoming another referendum in the General election.

[i'm spartacus]

Its not that part you quoted is the issue the issue is in the referendum bill it stated it had to go to the MP's. Problem is this could become a football and maybe deliberately to sabotage it.

They could use that is wanted to but it still going to be an issue to bypass any MP's. It such a simple thing to do. Go to the MPs give them the vote and then its clean. By using that directive May could well genuine but it could be political mess once it goes to court. And as it looks now it will and delay the process.

I voted to remain only on workers rights I would rather they got us out by 2020 now than let this become a football where we get a hung parliament. As much of a mess labour is in the Tories are not that much happier atm.

2020 is in danger of becoming another referendum in the General election.

you are just not getting it.

Every Referendum in this country is only ever advisory, including general elections. The referendum bill you quote from the article is

"A new bill to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act that took Britain into the EU must now be passed by parliament"

There is simply no need to repeal that Act at all. The European Communities Act is the Act which makes all EU Treaties enforceable in UK law. This was enacted according to our constitutional principles - ie passed through Parliament and accepted by both houses; so, the Act that took us into the EU can work in exactly the same way to take us out of the EU, because EU Treaties are enforceable by virtue of the European Communities Act.

Article 50 is contained within the Treaty of Lisbon, ergo, Article 50 can be invoked because the European Communities Act says it can.


I wouldn't worry so much about a hung Parliament - Labour under Corbyn will not get anywhere near government

[Wandering Warrior]

Who the hell have are Nissan
/Renault and Landrover to dictate?
There's only a couple of thousands employed by them. Who do they think they are to leave or demand a fair deal?

[thegimble]

Its not that part you quoted is the issue the issue is in the referendum bill it stated it had to go to the MP's. Problem is this could become a football and maybe deliberately to sabotage it.

They could use that is wanted to but it still going to be an issue to bypass any MP's. It such a simple thing to do. Go to the MPs give them the vote and then its clean. By using that directive May could well genuine but it could be political mess once it goes to court. And as it looks now it will and delay the process.

I voted to remain only on workers rights I would rather they got us out by 2020 now than let this become a football where we get a hung parliament. As much of a mess labour is in the Tories are not that much happier atm.

2020 is in danger of becoming another referendum in the General election.

you are just not getting it.

Every Referendum in this country is only ever advisory, including general elections. The referendum bill you quote from the article is

"A new bill to repeal the 1972 European Communities Act that took Britain into the EU must now be passed by parliament"

There is simply no need to repeal that Act at all. The European Communities Act is the Act which makes all EU Treaties enforceable in UK law. This was enacted according to our constitutional principles - ie passed through Parliament and accepted by both houses; so, the Act that took us into the EU can work in exactly the same way to take us out of the EU, because EU Treaties are enforceable by virtue of the European Communities Act.

Article 50 is contained within the Treaty of Lisbon, ergo, Article 50 can be invoked because the European Communities Act says it can.


I wouldn't worry so much about a hung Parliament - Labour under Corbyn will not get anywhere near government

So she needs to get that bill through both houses. that is going to be very interesting.

[i'm spartacus]

I notice with interest that the Government made an announcement on the issue today. It makes for a good headline, but I don’t believe it will change the position of those challenging the proposed invocation of Article 50 one bit.

The remainers behind the court case challenging our exit from the EU, are claiming that the Government alone cannot invoke Article 50. In what is a long document presenting their legal argument, they claim that in order to trigger Article 50 at all, it must be voted for in Parliament. This idea was first put forward by three eminent constitutional law lecturers, and this effectively forms the basis of the legal challenge

https://ukconstitutionallaw.org/2016/0 ... able-role/

Their argument in a nutshell is that Parliament must repeal the European Communities Act 1972 (ECA) through Parliament before triggering Article 50, and that the triggering of Article 50 itself would require a vote through Parliament once the ECA is repealed. The Governments position is that Article 50 can be invoked using Prerogative power without the need to involve Parliament at all.

The remainers also argue that this cannot be done because;
• The will of Parliament in enacting the ECA was to take us into Europe, and not out of it. and;
• Use Prerogative power to take us out of the EU means that it will override the purpose of the ECA which is a statutory law; and they quite correctly argue that Prerogative power can never override the will of Parliament


Needless to say, there are opposing legal opinions that come to a very different conclusion, which includes that of other eminent constitutional experts and the Government legal advisers.

This brings us to today’s announcement in which the Government has said that it does intend to repeal the ECA, and it will put the bill before Parliament next spring. Crucially, the statement says that any repeal of the ECA will not take effect until after the UK has formally left the EU; so in reality, this action will not in any way change the Government’s intention to invoke Article 50 through the use of Prerogative power. This does nothing to satisfy the points raised by the people responsible for the challenge and I expect that they will proceed with their challenge regardless.


How different the attitudes of the losing side in this referendum as opposed to the those on the leave side who lost the 1975 referendum on remaining in the common market. Tony Benn said "When the British people speak everyone, including members of Parliament, should tremble before their decision, and that's certainly the spirit with which I accept the result of the referendum."


What a sublime sense of self entitlement this current generation has that they cannot accept that they didn’t get their own way

[cpwigan]

If the referendun is not accepted and acted upon then we need a 2017 Guy Fawkes to visit the HOP

[Wiganer Ted]

That would be an interesting one.
People will only take notice once Foreign Companies re-locate to the EU from the UK and jobs are lost.
That's if they do!
They have said they will but the "Leavers" all say they won't.

[cpwigan]

Time will tell Ted. My opinion is less will do than those that threaten to. I do think the economy will be hit short term but long term we will be better.

[DaveO]

Time will tell Ted. My opinion is less will do than those that threaten to. I do think the economy will be hit short term but long term we will be better.

And on what do you base that conclusion on?

You seem to be very good at making such statements about life after Brexit but are very short on giving your reasons for these opinions.

Yesterday May gave her biggest indication yet we will go for a "hard brexit" so we can control immigration and not be subject to the laws of the European Court of Justice (not the European Court of Human Rights).

If we do, that will without a doubt excuse us from the single market not just for the obvious political reason, which is in the single market free movement of labour is allowed so immigration control is counter to that - but also because of no longer complying to the laws set down by European Court of Justice.

If we do the latter then everything we export to the EU which at the moment is covered by ECJ law won't be and so will be subject to customs inspections and testing. This is nothing to do with Tariffs but actual access to the market without a mountain of red tape to climb.

Why anyone would want to base themselves in the UK to export to Europe under those circumstances I have no idea and domestic companies that are already here and export top the EU must be in despair.

She made a glib comment about we would be able to choose how to label our food. What she doesn't realise is, if we don't label it the same way as the rest of Europe we can't sell produce to the rest of Europe.

It is in fact a great example of what "taking back control" is a false promise. If we take back control and immediately start ignoring EU laws and rules governing goods and services we won't be able to sell them into the EU.

How any of this will make is better off long term I have no idea.

May and the rest of the Brexit Tories are still living in a UKIP dream world.

And I am sorry to say CPW, you are in there with them.