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sheepdip wrote:

cpwigan wrote:

sheepdip wrote:During the forum IL indicated that the club was under great financial constraints in regard to the salary cap and therefore not being able to tempt players to either return to the club or sign up for the first time. The situation is at present is that we are being outfoxed by the likes Hull KR for players signatures and that we do not have a turnover of over £4 million. IL stated that he was having to go and sign players on the cheap taking chances on players like Smith and Pryce, one with a dodgy past and the other with a long term injury. How the hell have we ended up like this! It looked to me as though he is having to rebuild a club that has been financially mismanaged and had its assets stripped by those who have run the club in the past. A rubbish sponsorship deal, poor income from merchandising, and virtually nothing from food and bar takings. I am all for the development of new facilities both for fans and for the selling of merchandise. This Hogan guy is going to have to bloody work hard to pull this lot round. What else can we do but trust Leneghan as without him we would be finished by now.

For all it's supposed faults this club will always have people who want to own it. We are not beholding to any owner.

you run the club then you appear tho have all the answers

Give me the money and I could not do any worse. If you get the right people in place, the day to day running of the club takes care of itself. Hogan is a quality appointment. IL understands off field business far better than on field. A recent NRL coach, a world class backroom staff of specialist assistants and within 3 years you would have a Wigan team in the top 3, genuinely contesting for trophies. The onfield side (THE MOST IMPORTANT) is an umitigated disaster and will continue to be so.

Hi Cp,

so was IL implying that these players had mental health problems or just that they weren't 100% committed to the cause. With Fielden, Feka and Barrett I would guess their state of mind has been (respectively) bottle gone, distracted and worried & no longer ar*ed.

It's baffling. It can't be all the coaching. This particular team has turned in some royal wins against Warrington, Bradford and Leeds and then vacillates to give us our most recent displays. How can they play convincingly well and then so badly in such short time??

KOOCH wrote:

cpwigan wrote:

TWO EYED WARRIOR wrote:In short then the same old rhetoric and almost a stage managed performance ?

Assistants , seems to be the buzz word how about some quality number 1s

Yes and unfortunately it tends to be the middle age upwards fans who attend and would clap whatever was said and giggle in the right places.

Hoi cp i'm middle aged.Unfortunately distance and time stopped me from attending fans forum.The only way noble will walk is if the fans start to walk.But we being what it say's on the shirt(loyal)are true to form by attending even crap games.I can assure you i have not had much to applaude about this season.Just as pissed as you. :conf:

Exactly and that was ignored by and large. There was no recognition that EVERY game has been like that this year. One guy had some balls at the back and the conservative evangelical supporter types who attend these events by and large had the temerity to have a go at him. CLEARLY THE EVANGELEICAL WING HAVE NOT WATCHED WIGAN THIS SEASON OR ARE BLIND. Barbara and Jeanette will have their weekly sycophantic tripe ready for punlication in the Wigan Evening Post. The 10 commandments having been replaced by 1 "THOU SHALL NOT CRITICISE WIGAN"

Wigan have not played well for 80 minutes once this season. The nearest was Leeds away. The best spell of quality was the first 40 v Leeds at home when players like Trent and Hock were on fire. The second 40 v Leeds was the same old garbage so in a single match we went from GF winning class to bottom of the SL class. The systems of play used do not afford/create a consistent platform. Any quality is individually inspired. It owes nothing to coaching. He may as well not exist. Those systems of play are even adverse for our reserves and academy who manage to win inspite of them rather than due to them. The quality of our academy reserve players is so far ahead of most clubs that they would win 90% of their matches if Alex Murphy coached them. When it matters v quality opposition, the system of play leves them at a disadvantage and hung out to dry.

weststand-rich wrote:Hi Cp,

so was IL implying that these players had mental health problems or just that they weren't 100% committed to the cause. With Fielden, Feka and Barrett I would guess their state of mind has been (respectively) bottle gone, distracted and worried & no longer ar*ed.

It's baffling. It can't be all the coaching. This particular team has turned in some royal wins against Warrington, Bradford and Leeds and then vacillates to give us our most recent displays. How can they play convincingly well and then so badly in such short time??

They would never use mental health as the discription. Focus / motivation / confidence - well being is how they would describe it but essentially that is your mental health.

The inconsistency is the juxtaposition of two conflicting factors.

The players individually are quality players. If you put the Wigan team on paper are they not decent? far better than most? Those players are talented so at times they conjure magic up by drawing on their individual talents. That is what happens when we win or when we get a good spell of play. The old oh your a one team scenariofrom last season.

The foundation / the bedrock is the game plan / the system of play. If that is solid it allows you to have something consistent to battle through the war of attrition that makes up large parts of each game / season. It allows you to react /overcome crisis. A sending off / injuries / a refereeing mistake / some players not at their best.

Individual magic is inconsistent. It is rare/always has/always will be. It is the icing on the cake. If you rely on it, you will never achieve anything. Whatsmore, players get frustrated, they lose confidence, self belief, their heads drop, they lose respect for their coach/club, they want out.

RL players are very ordinary people, they often have a talent that they cannot even understand. Only a handful of players have the know how / rl brain to knit it together / to ensure the coaches system / game plan is executed. Now if those generals think the coach/system is not good enough you get events like Huddersfield. The players subconciously or deliberately stop even trying to execute the game plan and the foot soldiers are more and more confused. The best on field general I have seen was Wally Lewis, Shaun Edwards was the best British general. Wally Lewis could not work alongside Wayne Bennett. Lewis went. Shaun Edwards could not work alongside John Dorahay. Dorahay went. Think back to the Dorahay season. Same inconsistency, some God awful matches. Match thrown v Cas (Regal Trophy) sudden miraculous recoveries Hull in the cup, when it really mattered pulling it out the fire. - Similar tolast season play offs. A GREAT Wigan team managed that for a season, had it gone beyond thinfgs would have got worse. Do yoy honestly think Trent Barrett rates Brian Noble. Forget what he says now publically. It may be that the truth will come out when he leaves, writes an autobiography etc.

The essence of a teams structure /system of play is DEFENCE you need a team to defend. If you ever play football, defence operates at different depths vertically. The sweeper can sweep up mistakes happening in front of him. RL does not work like that. you have to fulfill your end of the bargain otherwise the other team are gone / try scored. Your end of the bargain is often not the tackle. Players can tackle. Your end of the bargain is moving up in a straight line. Minimising the option inside and outside of the ball carrier. Defence in RL is the embodyment of a team. No team, no defence. It is also the bedrock of the game and gives you consistency of performance week in week out because you know you have to dend X sets in a match, make X tackles. Do it right and when you havbe the ball you can walk in tries. Wigan won matches on defence, Saints win matches on defences, Aussies win matches on defence, Melbourne's attack is not considered great, their attack, discipline to the system of play is OUTSTANDING.

All of the above is about coaching philosophy - THE COACH The matter that IL and JL want to ignore and they do so at their peril because if you do not have the right coach, modern day RL breaks down quickly and badly. If the coach was not fundamental then why are Saints far far improved under Anderson, why are certain coaches far far more successful than others given comparable resources, why have coaches? why coach? go back to captain coaches.

Of course not. THE COACH IS THE INTERNAL HEARTBEAT OF ANY SPORTING TEAM. That is how important he is.

cpwigan wrote:

sheepdip wrote:

cpwigan wrote: For all it's supposed faults this club will always have people who want to own it. We are not beholding to any owner.

you run the club then you appear tho have all the answers

Give me the money and I could not do any worse. If you get the right people in place, the day to day running of the club takes care of itself. Hogan is a quality appointment. IL understands off field business far better than on field. A recent NRL coach, a world class backroom staff of specialist assistants and within 3 years you would have a Wigan team in the top 3, genuinely contesting for trophies. The onfield side (THE MOST IMPORTANT) is an umitigated disaster and will continue to be so.

I would love to see a top NRL coach come over, but sadly in our current situation I don't think we could tempt somebody of the right pedigree , what can the club offer somebody in its present situation. The glory days are long gone were Lindsay had the money to just go out and bring in John Monie and sign the likes of a Hanley, Gregory, Offiah etc. Where NORWEB could just walk into the dressing room at halftime and drop a pile of cash on the table. We have to stop living in the past. I believe the whole set up is now second rate and I do agree the playing side is a disaster. Having witnessed many years of instability at the club, until recently I was prepared to give Noble the chance to turn things round and did think he was up to the job. We all know something is inherently wrong on the playing side and I think Noble should now take the wrap.

Thought IL dodged the questions re nobbys remarks about off field issues. He said he would answer and then proceeded to say it wasn't drink or recreational drugs related and moved onto the next point without saying what nobby was on about. Was going to ask him the question again but asked something else instead

For god's sake, Cpwigan, give us a break. You are dominating this forum with a ceaseless string of negative rants, stating over and over and over again, ad nauseam, the same points. Everyone else is trying to have a debate or at least just get their frustration off their chest, but you seem to feel the need to come in and stamp down on every single post from people who don't share your view.

If you don't like what Jeanette or I write in the paper, tough. Those are our honest opinions and that's what we've been asked to provide. An opinion is not, repeat not, invalid just because you don't share it. Nor is trying to find some positives while still being prepared to be criticial of the team being sycophantic, by the way. Try reading this Thursday's and you'll see what I mean.

This may come as a surprise, but some of us as prepared to read other people's views without feeling the need to come in and knock them down evry time. Try it.

sheepdip wrote:

cpwigan wrote:

sheepdip wrote: you run the club then you appear tho have all the answers

Give me the money and I could not do any worse. If you get the right people in place, the day to day running of the club takes care of itself. Hogan is a quality appointment. IL understands off field business far better than on field. A recent NRL coach, a world class backroom staff of specialist assistants and within 3 years you would have a Wigan team in the top 3, genuinely contesting for trophies. The onfield side (THE MOST IMPORTANT) is an umitigated disaster and will continue to be so.

I would love to see a top NRL coach come over, but sadly in our current situation I don't think we could tempt somebody of the right pedigree , what can the club offer somebody in its present situation. The glory days are long gone were Lindsay had the money to just go out and bring in John Monie and sign the likes of a Hanley, Gregory, Offiah etc. Where NORWEB could just walk into the dressing room at halftime and drop a pile of cash on the table. We have to stop living in the past. I believe the whole set up is now second rate and I do agree the playing side is a disaster. Having witnessed many years of instability at the club, until recently I was prepare to give Noble the chance to turn things round and did think he was up to the job. We all know something is inherently wrong on the playing side and I think Noble should take the wrap.

SD your right. A lot of the quick fixes you mention do not exist now. What they actually do is place even more burden upon the coach and his ability. People like John Monie did not want to come, they had to be persuaded nagged. It took effort but effort that wasworthwhile and as if not more important than cash although waving money which you can still do as coaches/backroom staff helps.

The club said last night we want to go the youth route. So why have a coach with a track record that does not include developing a team of youngsters, a coach with no track record other than negative v youth, a coach whose only success came inheriting an established team and then adding more ready made players. Tim Sheens has a record of developing young teams. You camp outside his home. There are others in the NRL. You have to be prepared to do your own groundwork and spend time getting the right coach. If you sit on your own doorstep or rely on agent hearsay you will never get anything but second best, your choice will always be restricted and a case of make do and hope for divine intervention.

Nine wrote:For god's sake, Cpwigan, give us a break. You are dominating this forum with a ceaseless string of negative rants, stating over and over and over again, ad nauseam, the same points. Everyone else is trying to have a debate or at least just get their frustration off their chest, but you seem to feel the need to come in and stamp down on every single post from people who don't share your view.

If you don't like what Jeanette or I write in the paper, tough. Those are our honest opinions and that's what we've been asked to provide. An opinion is not, repeat not, invalid just because you don't share it. Nor is trying to find some positives while still being prepared to be criticial of the team being sycophantic, by the way. Try reading this Thursday's and you'll see what I mean.

This may come as a surprise, but some of us as prepared to read other people's views without feeling the need to come in and knock them down evry time. Try it.

Sorry but Barbara I am lol at your post. The Thursday letters page might as well be retitled the Barb and Jenny Column. Week after week the same old ignorance is bliss crap. Do you two attend party political conferences for youer holidays?

So you accusing me of dominating this thread / issue is just a wee bit hypocritical on your part.

You may as well not write your letters, they are meaningless, rename the Riversiders because as an organisation it is toothless and spineless. 1984 was a fictional novel. You are allowed to think for yourselves and have negative views, realistic views, truthful views. Nothing in life was ever changed for the better by being sycophantic and pretending everything was okay. Real change comes from challenging and questioning and demanding change.

Thus far in 2008 who has been on the money. My moaning or barbies and jennys lushy love ins?

cpwigan wrote:

Nine wrote:For god's sake, Cpwigan, give us a break. You are dominating this forum with a ceaseless string of negative rants, stating over and over and over again, ad nauseam, the same points. Everyone else is trying to have a debate or at least just get their frustration off their chest, but you seem to feel the need to come in and stamp down on every single post from people who don't share your view.

If you don't like what Jeanette or I write in the paper, tough. Those are our honest opinions and that's what we've been asked to provide. An opinion is not, repeat not, invalid just because you don't share it. Nor is trying to find some positives while still being prepared to be criticial of the team being sycophantic, by the way. Try reading this Thursday's and you'll see what I mean.

This may come as a surprise, but some of us as prepared to read other people's views without feeling the need to come in and knock them down evry time. Try it.

Sorry but Barbara I am lol at your post. The Thursday letters page might as well be retitled the Barb and Jenny Column. Week after week the same old ignorance is bliss crap. Do you two attend party political conferences for youer holidays?

So you accusing me of dominating this thread / issue is just a wee bit hypocritical on your part.

You may as well not write your letters, they are meaningless, rename the Riversiders because as an organisation it is toothless and spineless. 1984 was a fictional novel. You are allowed to think for yourselves and have negative views, realistic views, truthful views. Nothing in life was ever changed for the better by being sycophantic and pretending everything was okay. Real change comes from challenging and questioning and demanding change.

Thus far in 2008 who has been on the money. My moaning or barbies and jennys lushy love ins?

I’ll let others decide on all of that. Your reply perfectly illustrates the point I was trying to make.