wigan and saracens

[highland convert]

Living down here in Leicestershire, I talk to a lot of union fans, and most of them have very little interest in club rugby, all that matters to the majority of union fans is the international game. Wigan as a club cannot learn anything about marketing club rugby from Saracens or any other union club. The RFL however could learn a lot from whomever markets that load of old tripe that gets 70,000 plus to watch fat blokes roll around in the mud after one of them has dropped a high ball to spoil the game of tennis kicking.

This post shows the total ignorance I refer to. Yo are talking about a sport followed by many Glasgow-Edinburgh to Southhampton. You equate it to a sport played in a heartland in the midlands/yorkshire and they are rubbish. Played at the top level the stars are every bit as fit as RL players. Yes rules have been brought in to make the game less attractive but it is still a major sport. They have proved the pennies put in by fans at the gate is not enough and have gone out and found the money elsewhere. Your post is on par with those hoping latics get the chop. the "if it is not my sport it is crap" is juvenile and it helps keep RL where it is stuck at present. A backwater minority sport held down by Sky who want to keep it where it is cos they get better money and viewing figure from magners league. Get your head out the sand. You are suffocating the sport. Jim

I don't see how what you wrote above answers the point exile made which you quoted which was about RU at club level not being able to teach us anything about marketing.

As you know I live in Chester and my son plays RU for Chester RU at senior colts level. Throughout his time at the club I wuld say a majority of parents involved take an interest in what their son does but do not actively support RU at club level. None of them go an watch the senior side play and this is typical of many English RU clubs in the area where the senior and junior sides may as well be from different planets.

Some of them (half a dozen at most) follow Sale Sharks but very few of them actually go and support the side. Sale have a huge capture area and yet fail to get big crowds.

Sarries are lucky to get 6000 on. They have taken games to Wembley and got 40,000 for the day but if you read the comments on their web site the crowds for that are decreasing and it has not translated into increased support at their home ground. It all down to free tickets and deal for season ticket holders to bring friends. I think we do a far better job with the Big One which gets big crowds into our ground which stands a far better chance of translating into repeat business in my opinion.

There is still plenty of room for Wigan to improve on marketing. Communication is lacking and despite IL's promise to keep the fans informed it was Sarries who announced Joel was leaving and that is poor. The web site and on-line shop is also poor and I am sure we could think of other things that need improving but I don't see the likes of Sarries being some shining light in terms of marketing that we have to look to what they do.

Load of fat blokes playing kick tennis. Comments like that drive a wedge between the two codes and in case you have not noticed the cash is on the other side of the wedge from RL.

[DaveO]

This post shows the total ignorance I refer to. Yo are talking about a sport followed by many Glasgow-Edinburgh to Southhampton. You equate it to a sport played in a heartland in the midlands/yorkshire and they are rubbish. Played at the top level the stars are every bit as fit as RL players. Yes rules have been brought in to make the game less attractive but it is still a major sport. They have proved the pennies put in by fans at the gate is not enough and have gone out and found the money elsewhere. Your post is on par with those hoping latics get the chop. the "if it is not my sport it is crap" is juvenile and it helps keep RL where it is stuck at present. A backwater minority sport held down by Sky who want to keep it where it is cos they get better money and viewing figure from magners league. Get your head out the sand. You are suffocating the sport. Jim

I don't see how what you wrote above answers the point exile made which you quoted which was about RU at club level not being able to teach us anything about marketing.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/city-to- ... -1.1176573

And just what on earth is the point of that?

Their fans are not impressed:

"No atmosphere at Wembley. The crowd is there for the entertainment and last season about half the folk seated near me left after the Half Time entertainment. The "support staff" are unhelpful. I don't like being treated as a potential soccer hooligan. Last year I was told the programme I pay for in advance I could ask to be sent to me AFTER THE MATCH. Why do we have to go back there? Most of the tickets are given away anyway, so it can't be a money spinner. It galls me that I have to pay full price for any visitors who sit with me (because I have a platinum season ticket) whereas other season ticket holders are upgraded for free and get huge discounts on family and friends tickets. And now we're going to play a Heineken Cup match against Biarritz IN SOUTH AFRICA? What's the point of that. Who's lost the plot? I don't think it's me!"

[DaveO]

Load of fat blokes playing kick tennis. Comments like that drive a wedge between the two codes and in case you have not noticed the cash is on the other side of the wedge from RL.

What has that got to do with marketing?

[exile in Tiger country]

Living down here in Leicestershire, I talk to a lot of union fans, and most of them have very little interest in club rugby, all that matters to the majority of union fans is the international game. Wigan as a club cannot learn anything about marketing club rugby from Saracens or any other union club. The RFL however could learn a lot from whomever markets that load of old tripe that gets 70,000 plus to watch fat blokes roll around in the mud after one of them has dropped a high ball to spoil the game of tennis kicking.

This post shows the total ignorance I refer to. Yo are talking about a sport followed by many Glasgow-Edinburgh to Southhampton. You equate it to a sport played in a heartland in the midlands/yorkshire and they are rubbish. Played at the top level the stars are every bit as fit as RL players. Yes rules have been brought in to make the game less attractive but it is still a major sport. They have proved the pennies put in by fans at the gate is not enough and have gone out and found the money elsewhere. Your post is on par with those hoping latics get the chop. the "if it is not my sport it is crap" is juvenile and it helps keep RL where it is stuck at present. A backwater minority sport held down by Sky who want to keep it where it is cos they get better money and viewing figure from magners league. Get your head out the sand. You are suffocating the sport. Jim

Where did I say "if it is not my sport it is crap"? I have tried to watch union. It is a very complicated game and when did you last see a ubion forward try to break a defensive line? The game is based on hoping the opposition drop the ball when you kick it to them What percentage of a union game is spent with players passing the ball between them compared with league? The union fans still persist in the myth that league is a slower game because of the tackle/regain your feet/play the ball. The idea that a large number of men trying to retain or regain posession of a ball whilst lying on the floor apparently makes for an exciting spectacle.
However, as other have pointed out, my main point was that at club level, Wigan have nothing to learn about marketing. Given that attendances at a minority "sport played in a heartland in the midlands/yorkshire" eclipse the majority of club attendances in Premiership Rugby Union. A link here to a fan site of the Tigers shows some figures.

http://www.rugbynetwork.net/boards/read ... 6,12807143

And as a final point, I live in the Midlands, and believe me there are no Superleague, or even CO-OP Championship RL clubs around here, although the amateur game is doing quite well.

[cpwigan]

Exile would you agree right or wrong Union clubs have access to far better corporate investors. If so then simply by linking we are giving our marketing staff access to lucrative revenue streams.

[exile in Tiger country]

Exile would you agree right or wrong Union clubs have access to far better corporate investors. If so then simply by linking we are giving our marketing staff access to lucrative revenue streams.

That is indeed a valid point, however having brought in Magners Wigan were already tapping into the market that currently supports RU.
You're right though,we may well be able to use the contacts made through Saracens to get deals with larger companies.

[DaveO]

Exile would you agree right or wrong Union clubs have access to far better corporate investors. If so then simply by linking we are giving our marketing staff access to lucrative revenue streams.

That is indeed a valid point, however having brought in Magners Wigan were already tapping into the market that currently supports RU.
You're right though,we may well be able to use the contacts made through Saracens to get deals with larger companies.

I think before people go and put Sarries on a pedestal of being commercial and corporate genius a bit of background might be in order.

In 1995 Sarries were bought by a chap called Nigel Wray and he underwrote their losses until very recently. He has never made a penny form the club and has been their benefactor since 1995. They survived on his handouts, not due to massive sponsorship deals with anyone. A quick Google will tell you they reckon they need 15,000 home gates to break even but we know they do not get them.

Wray is now co-owner with a South African consortium who he got in because he could not keep shelling out the cash. They own 50% of the club and have a number of people on the board. This is why they are off to SA to play a game and why there are so many SA players at Sarries. The SA link is very unpopular with other Premiership clubs as they see it as a way of getting what is essentially a SA side in the English Premiership. This game in SA is almost a home match.

So now Wray and his SA people bank roll the club (and they do bank roll it as it does not stand on its own financial feet).

Their main sponsor is Garmin Sat Nav. Other are Grundfos (central heating pump manufacturer), Elite Insurance, Afex (a foreign exchange company) and Nike.

None of this sounds particularly remarkable and given RU club rugby crowds (as opposed to Internationals) sponsors do not reach any more people than they do in other minority sports such as RL so I can't see why they would be paying a premium.

The big question with Sarries is the SA link and what happens if they decide they can't make a go of it and pull out. Wray certainly thinks that RU will abandon their salary cap in order to compete with the French and from what I have read I think this is also why he got the SA people involved to help bank roll the club. What they expect to get out of it other than the enjoyment of owning a top club is not clear but the bottom line is Sarries are bank-rolled by Wray and the South Africans. Sponsorship and commercial activities are not their main income. After all there is only so much cash you can wring from so few supporters.

Wigan under IL have moved away from the bank-rolled business model and Sarries are much closer to the Wigan of the DW era where he bank rolled it. So unless we want to look for people like the South Africans to take a 50% share and for them to then impose themselves on the club as they have done at Sarries, I am not sure they can teach us that much.

[Welski]

I don't see how what you wrote above answers the point exile made which you quoted which was about RU at club level not being able to teach us anything about marketing.

http://www.iol.co.za/capeargus/city-to- ... -1.1176573

And just what on earth is the point of that?

Their fans are not impressed:

"No atmosphere at Wembley. The crowd is there for the entertainment and last season about half the folk seated near me left after the Half Time entertainment. The "support staff" are unhelpful. I don't like being treated as a potential soccer hooligan. Last year I was told the programme I pay for in advance I could ask to be sent to me AFTER THE MATCH. Why do we have to go back there? Most of the tickets are given away anyway, so it can't be a money spinner. It galls me that I have to pay full price for any visitors who sit with me (because I have a platinum season ticket) whereas other season ticket holders are upgraded for free and get huge discounts on family and friends tickets. And now we're going to play a Heineken Cup match against Biarritz IN SOUTH AFRICA? What's the point of that. Who's lost the plot? I don't think it's me!"

Rugby Union is massive in SA. Saracens have a strong SA make up now. If they can develop their already growing fan base in that country it promotes their product and increases their revenue stream. End result they become a stronger club financially which should translate to a stonger squad. What's the point of Manchester United playing pre season friendies in the far east? What's the point of the Beckhams of the world being signed by US soccer teams? Its all about raising the profile of the club, image rights are worth more than ever these days. Of course some Sarries fans wont like it now but in 5/10 years time when they (hopefully) reap the rewards they will have forgotten missing out on the odd game.

Wigan are one of the few names in RL that capture the imagination outside of the RL heartlands and its about time the club tried to capitalise on it. If this idea stimulates that type of thinking I'm all for it.

[cpwigan]

Dave O or IL

Does RU have access to far more corporate sponsors? we are talking way beyond mere shirt sponsors etc Could we benefit? especially given how good our marketing dept is?

Incidentally, fans should read IL's view on Joel, wildly contrasts with Dave O

[DaveO]

Dave O or IL

Does RU have access to far more corporate sponsors? we are talking way beyond mere shirt sponsors etc Could we benefit? especially given how good our marketing dept is?

Incidentally, fans should read IL's view on Joel, wildly contrasts with Dave O

We are not talking about RU but Sarries. Wigan have not linked up with the RFU but with an R U club and the question is what if anything we could learn from that particular club. I have told you who their sponsors are and how they are owned and run. Normally even you would admit there is nothing special there but instead you are on a childish crusade to disagree with everything I post even it that means having to change the subject to do so.