Time for a divorse Mrs Carney

[DaveO]

jinkin jimmy posted:
At the end of the day, whether you take one point of view or another about contracts, loyalty, professionalism or whatever, Carney has illustrated to me that he doesn't give a toss about the club. He can therefore disappear forthwith. He wanted to be released, fine, his contract should be terminated immediately. I really don't want him to see another penny from Wigan.

I agree and ChrisA has said much the same thing.

He will though, have a contract to the end of the season and will get paid.

I never understood how Wigan ended up paying Farrell until 1st June so it would not surprise me if the club does not pay Carney until the end of the season.

Maybe with Carney they don't want him free to play for anyone else in the UK for the last few games and have decided his contract money is a price worth paying for that.

If he remains contracted to the club until the end of the season then I hope Millward never selects him again. I'd sooner see Desi Williams get a run out than Carney return to the team.

Dave

[adrenalinxx]

I don't want Carney to play for Wigan again I’d rather see Liam Colbon play.

I think some people are taking this issue to far, go Carney went to the media and said he wanted to leave but players do stuff like this week in and week out. He has made a decision to leave a club he's hasn't done anything like taking drugs which would he far worse.

Brain Carney may have said that he wanted to leave but if had said nothing and just gone all Wigan fans would be outraged that he didn't say anything. Brain Carney said that he wanted to go and perhaps it was the papers that took it too far.

What I’m against is people treating this far worse than it is. Carney is gone and we don't want him to play again for Wigan but that’s that, I don't think he set out to cause problems at Wigan but the media and some other people have blown it out of proportion.

And if Loyalty to a club is extremely important to you then you can never say that Wigan should get rid of anyone or say that Wigan should sign anyone because it would result in player being "disloyal" to there club by not staying the full terms of their contracts.

[DaveO]

adrenalinxx posted:
I don't want Carney to play for Wigan again I’d rather see Liam Colbon play.

I think some people are taking this issue to far, go Carney went to the media and said he wanted to leave but players do stuff like this week in and week out.

No they don't!

He has made a decision to leave a club he's hasn't done anything like taking drugs which would he far worse.

Brain Carney may have said that he wanted to leave but if had said nothing and just gone all Wigan fans would be outraged that he didn't say anything. Brain Carney said that he wanted to go and perhaps it was the papers that took it too far.

Careny could have negotiated his release with the club, discussed it with them in private and then an annoucment could be made.

That is the right and proper way to go about things but instead the first we hear about it is some quote from (I think) an Aussie newspaper.

What I’m against is people treating this far worse than it is. Carney is gone and we don't want him to play again for Wigan but that’s that, I don't think he set out to cause problems at Wigan but the media and some other people have blown it out of proportion.

There are two different issues. Whether we want him to play again is one issue but the other is far more important and that is to do with the whole idea of contracts and the way they are handled by both the players and the club.

I happen to think the way this has gone could have bad consiquences for the club with other players pointing to Carney's (and Farrell's) exit and saying "you let then go, why not me?". As Fraggle pointed out a few posts nack you can't run a club where contracts are meaningless bits of paper and to me it seems that is where we are heading.

And if Loyalty to a club is extremely important to you then you can never say that Wigan should get rid of anyone or say that Wigan should sign anyone because it would result in player being "disloyal" to there club by not staying the full terms of their contracts.

The club simply will not get rid of players by sacking them as it would have to pay up their contracts. Once they have a contract they are protected and have job security for the duration of the contract.

If at the end of the contract the club decides it can't keep them on that is fair enough because it is a fixed term deal and both parties will have honoured their side of the bargain and known the score from day one.

I have pointed out several time in here and on RLFANS that the club can't just get rid of Wild (for example) at the end of the season because he has a contract until the end of 2006.

It doesn't mean he is beyond critisism as a player!

If the club decide he isn't up to the job they can offer him to other clubs who must take over his contract if they want him. That is the only way the club can get rid unless they and the player agree to a parting of the ways by mutual consent where both parties agree to terminate the contract.

What would be unfair to the player would be Wigan asking a fee for him. That is asking for a fee for a player they didn't want which could prevent him from finding another club.

Wigan don't do this though and are very fair to players who leave.

Dave

[Fraggle]

adrenalinxx posted:
Brain Carney may have said that he wanted to leave but if had said nothing and just gone all Wigan fans would be outraged that he didn't say anything. Brain Carney said that he wanted to go and perhaps it was the papers that took it too far.

I'm not sure I agree with that. Infact, I'm happier if players go quietly without either bleating to the press trying to make out they're being hard-done-by, or having all the weeks of speculation that surrounded Jason Robinson, Faz and Rads. By saying nothing then fans are left to make their own minds up about what's gone on but that's not a bad thing and usually no-one thinks too harshly of either player or club. By making things public then one side or the other usually ends up looking pretty bad, and that doesn't really help anyone.

What I’m against is people treating this far worse than it is. Carney is gone and we don't want him to play again for Wigan but that’s that, I don't think he set out to cause problems at Wigan but the media and some other people have blown it out of proportion.

The fact that he's gone isn't really a problem, I think most of us are agreed that he's got to go now and the sooner the better. But what worries most of us is not related to Carney but whether any other players in the future are going to go down the same route and decide that if they want out, all they need to do is go to the press and demand to be released because it worked for Carney. Will it be acceptable if Lockers, Hock, and maybe one or two more of our promising kids decide they want to go somewhere else mid-contract and insist on leaving? What this situation does is alert other clubs that players may be open to offers even if they are under contract, and if the offer is good enough that by making things public the club the player is currently contracted to might well give in and release their star players. I don't know about you, but I'd rather us be able to build a team around players without having to worry about whether they'll disappear halfway through the process of building the team.

And if Loyalty to a club is extremely important to you then you can never say that Wigan should get rid of anyone or say that Wigan should sign anyone because it would result in player being "disloyal" to there club by not staying the full terms of their contracts.

No player should be bigger than the club. That's what everyone said when it seemed (to some) that Farrell was running the place a couple of seasons ago. The fact is that Wigan RLFC will survive long after all the current players have gone, and hopefully it will regain its status within the game and once again be the most important RL club in the world. Players should be proud to have the chance to represent the Cherry and White, and should be grateful to the club for giving them great opportunity to go for international recognition and receive a very nice pay packet as well. Playing for Wigan is more likely to give you fame and success than playing for, say, Salford, and the players have a responsibility to repay the club for its judgement in signing them instead of some other player. No-one has suggested the club ever refuses to pay players or treats the players badly, so why shouldn't the players also be expected to do their part in return?

[Matthew]

adrenalinxx posted:And if Loyalty to a club is extremely important to you.

Allow me to stick my oar in again…

Firstly, by my recollection the motto of this club is ancient and loyal – as was proved by the fans when they stilled turned up in record numbers, despite Wigan’s worst season in modern times, back to back record defeats and losing doubles to clubs like London for the first time and to Huddersfield for the first time in 70 odd years – so yes, to me loyalty is important. Carney is well paid and if he can’t show a little loyalty in return it is a pretty poor job.

Another winger is leaving a club at the end of the year – Calderwood of Leeds. He made his announcement after contract negotiations had been finished to say that he was moving on, there was no mention in the media to up the pressure on Leeds – he couldn’t agree terms so he moved on, he didn’t shout to any and all that would listen. Carney has been released from his contract early after stating he wanted to play in the NRL, he spoke to just about anyone that would listen that Wigan should release him.

However the biggest difference was the statements made by the players. When Calderwood made his announcement he stated that he would do everything in his power to help Leeds win the Super League. Carney has not mentioned playing for Wigan again – let alone helping them to survive or mount a challenge on the top six, proving he has no commitment to the club. True Calderwood is in the shop window – however every club in Super League knows about his ability and I doubt that he will be playing in NFP next year. Carney got what he wanted and can’t wait to leave – in my opinion the club should state that he cannot play for anyone in the UK and just ship him off to Newcastle and he can pay the air fare

[Fraggle]

Matthew posted:
Carney got what he wanted and can’t wait to leave – in my opinion the club should state that he cannot play for anyone in the UK and just ship him off to Newcastle and he can pay the air fare

Something just occurred to me - has anyone told Carney that the Newcastle he's going to play for isn't anywhere near where he used to play at Gateshead...

[DaveO]

Matthew posted:
Another winger is leaving a club at the end of the year – Calderwood of Leeds. He made his announcement after contract negotiations had been finished to say that he was moving on, there was no mention in the media to up the pressure on Leeds – he couldn’t agree terms so he moved on, he didn’t shout to any and all that would listen. Carney has been released from his contract early after stating he wanted to play in the NRL, he spoke to just about anyone that would listen that Wigan should release him.

However the biggest difference was the statements made by the players. When Calderwood made his announcement he stated that he would do everything in his power to help Leeds win the Super League. Carney has not mentioned playing for Wigan again – let alone helping them to survive or mount a challenge on the top six, proving he has no commitment to the club. True Calderwood is in the shop window – however every club in Super League knows about his ability and I doubt that he will be playing in NFP next year. Carney got what he wanted and can’t wait to leave – in my opinion the club should state that he cannot play for anyone in the UK and just ship him off to Newcastle and he can pay the air fare

The bit in bold hits the nail right on the head!

It is the point I have been making about our incoming players and how they are behaving with respect to their current Aussie clubs.

With Calderwood we have an example right on our dorrstep as to how to behave when you know you are leaving your club

Well said.

Dave

[AncientWarrior]

Fraggle posted:

AncientWarrior posted:
To keep banging on about enforcing contracts smacks of living in cloud cuckoo land. Contracts are made to be broken and are scarcely worth the paper they're written on.

What gives you that idea? I've got a contract where I work, for vastly less than the likes of Carney, and I don't have any intention of breaking it. Instead I'm grateful to have a safe, secure job with not bad pay and decent conditions. Carney has had a secure (for the length of his contract) job, well paid and with the chance to play regular rugby at the highest level and with international recognition, fame and probably a small fortune. What more could he want? I wouldn't be considering breaking my contract in his boots.

When you see St Helens 'male bonding' before a game, it means that each and every one of the selected players is giving 100% to the cause. What price a 'disgruntled' player joining in this commitment to the team effort when everyone knows he doesn't mean it and that he will not 'die' for the team.

Which is why Long and Gleeson bet against their own team last year. How committed is that to the cause?

Enforcing a contract is a waste of time and completely counter-productive.

If every business in the country, and remember that Wigan is a business, adopted this approach then no-one would work anywhere for more than 5 minutes without moving to another job. What's the point of the lawyers, agents and others involved in negotiating contracts if they're a waste of space? Wigan put a lot of money in the direction of its stars, and the club has a right to protect that investment by enforcing contracts. Or would you prefer that all our players were open to being poached by other teams since the contract they signed and the loyalty shown by both parties at the time of signing that contract were all a load of nonsense?

Well done adrenalinxx for standing your corner against the 'big boys' of this site!!!!!

Everyone's entitled to their views, no matter how daft, misguided or naive they are

Are the views daft, misguided or naive just because they disagree with your views?

You seem to me to be a very immoderate moderator - aren't you supposed to 'police' this site to weed-out offensive or insulting comments?

As for the validity of contracts, the people as MG/Rover thought they had contracts too!

I congratulated adrenalinxx because he was expressing his opinion in the face of lengthy contrary views mainly from yourself and one other. Just because you say something repeatedly and at great length does not make it correct but it might just be enough to discourage others from expressing an opinion.

[Fraggle]

AncientWarrior posted:

Fraggle posted:

AncientWarrior posted:
Well done adrenalinxx for standing your corner against the 'big boys' of this site!!!!!

Everyone's entitled to their views, no matter how daft, misguided or naive they are

Are the views daft, misguided or naive just because they disagree with your views?

You seem to me to be a very immoderate moderator - aren't you supposed to 'police' this site to weed-out offensive or insulting comments?

Apologies, I perhaps used to wrong emoticon to try and show the sarcastic aspect of my comment. Do you really think I was serious about that? Perhaps you should read some of the other posts I've made over the last couple of years and you would realise that if I disagree with someone I'm much more likely to bore them with a 10000 word essay reply rather than resorting to insults. And I'm happy to listen to your criticisms if you can identify which part of my message was "offensive or insulting", I will happily revoke my moderating responsibilities if it can be shown I'm out-of-line.

As for the validity of contracts, the people as MG/Rover thought they had contracts too!

I congratulated adrenalinxx because he was expressing his opinion in the face of lengthy contrary views mainly from yourself and one other. Just because you say something repeatedly and at great length does not make it correct but it might just be enough to discourage others from expressing an opinion.

Why? We don't stop other people writing long messages if they want. I'd rather have proper discussions than "well I think you're wrong", "no I'm not", "yes you are" type arguments.

If you bother reading this thread you'll see I accept adrenalinxx's comments about the insurance payments as being correct as I had little knowledge of that area. I'm not here to win people over to my opinions, but to try and stimulate discussion. Adrenalinxx has replied to mine and DaveO's posts, so we've been no more repeating outselves than him/her. I may be wrong. Adrenalinxx may be wrong. We may both be wrong but they're our personal opinions and it seems neither side is prepared to change. So what? It'd be a dull place if we all agreed with each other. What would we discuss? Obviously myself and DaveO have different experiences on this issue than some other people, but the whole purpose of a place like this is that people can express their views and opinions which tend to be formed either from facts (not relevant in this case given we're talking of our subjective views about Carney's departure and contract situation) or from their own life experiences which are always going to be different from person-to-person.

[MrsLam]

Perhaps you should read some of the other posts I've made over the last couple of years and you would realise that if I disagree with someone I'm much more likely to bore them with a 10000 word essay reply rather than resorting to insults

Has he proven his point their Ancient Warrior!?