Higham Knew Nothing About the Netwon Thing

[ince warrior]

DaveO posted:

TWO EYED WARRIOR posted:

DaveO posted: Eh? All this blew up due to direct quotes from McNamara and Hood the Bradford chairman. Not some unattributed speculation in a local rag.

Dave

Prove it!.

OK then. Is the Bradford Bulls official web site good enough proof for you?

http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/bb_news_ ... ewsid=3323

The first anyone heard about it was from that nationally recognised paper the telegraph and argus.

I am not sure why direct quotes attributed to the Bradford officials are any less valid if they appear in that paper than IL's rebuttal appearing in the Wigan Observer but since they are now on the Bulls official site I take it that proves it?

A quote from the above link:

Steve McNamara confirmed that the bid has been rejected:

"We've had an approach from Wigan and turned it down out of hand. We're not interested in Terry Newton leaving our club and certainly not interested in taking Mickey Higham as his replacement, which is what Wigan were offering."

How that squares with what IL has said I really do not know.

EDIT: I would add while the Bradford version of events appears on their official site there is nothing on Wigan'a official site denying it. We only have the quotes from IL to the Observer for that.

Pretty poor show by Wigan IMO.

Dave

Good posts there Dave, I have to say I agree with the majority of what you're saying in this instance, you can hardly deny direct quotes without a full public denial... like I've said, let's just sort it out and concentrate on the season.

[Bear]

ince warrior posted:

DaveO posted:

TWO EYED WARRIOR posted: Prove it!.

OK then. Is the Bradford Bulls official web site good enough proof for you?

http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/bb_news_ ... ewsid=3323

The first anyone heard about it was from that nationally recognised paper the telegraph and argus.

I am not sure why direct quotes attributed to the Bradford officials are any less valid if they appear in that paper than IL's rebuttal appearing in the Wigan Observer but since they are now on the Bulls official site I take it that proves it?

A quote from the above link:

Steve McNamara confirmed that the bid has been rejected:

"We've had an approach from Wigan and turned it down out of hand. We're not interested in Terry Newton leaving our club and certainly not interested in taking Mickey Higham as his replacement, which is what Wigan were offering."

How that squares with what IL has said I really do not know.

EDIT: I would add while the Bradford version of events appears on their official site there is nothing on Wigan'a official site denying it. We only have the quotes from IL to the Observer for that.

Pretty poor show by Wigan IMO.

Dave

Good posts there Dave, I have to say I agree with the majority of what you're saying in this instance, you can hardly deny direct quotes without a full public denial... like I've said, let's just sort it out and concentrate on the season.

Good job you did agree otherwise theres another 2 pages to the thread comming

But yeah i do agree on you dave in all honesty mate, he is wrong in going behind his back, but could he be looking for his players next year as both players contracts are up

[DaveO]

Bear posted:
But yeah i do agree on you dave in all honesty mate, he is wrong in going behind his back, but could he be looking for his players next year as both players contracts are up

As Fraggle pointed out if he was then he would not be able offer Higham in exchange because Higham wouldn't be contracted to Wigan.

I also thought Newton's contract was for two more seasons at Bradford?

Even if it isn't Newton will be 30 next year and I don't think bringing a player of that age back is a good idea. Newton is not, IMO, the player he was five years ago.

Dave

[Bear]

Thats a good point dave. if he comes back next year he will nearly be ready for retirement

[DaveO]

TWO EYED WARRIOR posted:

OK then. Is the Bradford Bulls official web site good enough proof for you?

http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/bb_news_full.a...

This isnt proof this is just making a noise, 1 source quotes bardford bulls the other quotes the telegraph and argus.

Both are quoting each other which doesnt exactly provide proof this is just spin as far as im concerned

Of course it is proof. It is the Bulls website! The fact it is on there means that must be the clubs official position.

It is proof that McNamara said these things and if you won't accept it at face value now it is on the Bulls site that is just being silly.

If you won't accept that that then you can't accept the Wigan Observer quotes from IL. Or any other quote from anyone else anywhere for that matter!

i am not sure why direct quotes attributed to the Bradford officials are any less valid if they appear in that paper than IL's rebuttal appearing in the Wigan Observer but since they are now on the Bulls official site I take it that proves it?

Because we all know that papers dont always tell the truth, i would also question why the telegraph and argus? its not exactly the bastion of the national sport is it we have multiple experiences of local rags quoting sources which never came to fruition or where even remotely true

So you are claiming quotes that appear on the Bradford official site attributed to McNamara are false because they first appeared in a local paper?

Why would the Bradford Bulls put up quotes from their coach that he didn't say on their official site which would leave them open to a liable action?

One thing i wont be is sucked into local rags reporting, as a lot of what is reported is generally taken out of context and there own spin placed upon a story.

You need to learn the difference between editorial and direct quotes attributed to people like McNamara and IL.

We are all used to editorial from the WEP that contains no actual news and could have been plucked directly from the rumour mill on this message board.

That is completely different from a news article that quotes people regardless of what paper it appears in.

Any paper making up quotes by anyone like this would be sued on the spot. In this case Bradford would have placed a denial on their web site that McNamara said anything of the sort.

They didn't do that. What they did instead was reproduce the quotes! So there is only one explanation for that - he said it !!!

I sense more that this is a rebuttal of Noble trying to raid his old club again and being firmly told to bugger off and a bit of spin added on for good measure in an attempt to unsettle MH.

Well if McNamara didn't say it then how can that be? Who told him to bugger off? If you are suggesting the paper made it all up don't you realise that it is illegal to publish so called quotes that were never said by the person?

The Argos may be a local paper but they aren't that stupid.

If i turn out to be wrong ill hold my hands up and say so but as far as im concerned its SPIN all the way for me.

How could you possibly be any more wrong? I am not being funny or having a go but to try sand suggest quotes from the Bulls coach on the Bulls site can't be believed because they first appeared in a local paper is ridiculous.

Dave

[AncientWarrior]

DaveO posted:

TWO EYED WARRIOR posted:

OK then. Is the Bradford Bulls official web site good enough proof for you?

http://www.bradfordbulls.co.uk/bb_news_full.a...

This isnt proof this is just making a noise, 1 source quotes bardford bulls the other quotes the telegraph and argus.

Both are quoting each other which doesnt exactly provide proof this is just spin as far as im concerned

Of course it is proof. It is the Bulls website! The fact it is on there means that must be the clubs official position.

It is proof that McNamara said these things and if you won't accept it at face value now it is on the Bulls site that is just being silly.

If you won't accept that that then you can't accept the Wigan Observer quotes from IL. Or any other quote from anyone else anywhere for that matter!

i am not sure why direct quotes attributed to the Bradford officials are any less valid if they appear in that paper than IL's rebuttal appearing in the Wigan Observer but since they are now on the Bulls official site I take it that proves it?

Because we all know that papers dont always tell the truth, i would also question why the telegraph and argus? its not exactly the bastion of the national sport is it we have multiple experiences of local rags quoting sources which never came to fruition or where even remotely true

So you are claiming quotes that appear on the Bradford official site attributed to McNamara are false because they first appeared in a local paper?

Why would the Bradford Bulls put up quotes from their coach that he didn't say on their official site which would leave them open to a liable action?

One thing i wont be is sucked into local rags reporting, as a lot of what is reported is generally taken out of context and there own spin placed upon a story.

You need to learn the difference between editorial and direct quotes attributed to people like McNamara and IL.

We are all used to editorial from the WEP that contains no actual news and could have been plucked directly from the rumour mill on this message board.

That is completely different from a news article that quotes people regardless of what paper it appears in.

Any paper making up quotes by anyone like this would be sued on the spot. In this case Bradford would have placed a denial on their web site that McNamara said anything of the sort.

They didn't do that. What they did instead was reproduce the quotes! So there is only one explanation for that - he said it !!!

I sense more that this is a rebuttal of Noble trying to raid his old club again and being firmly told to bugger off and a bit of spin added on for good measure in an attempt to unsettle MH.

Well if McNamara didn't say it then how can that be? Who told him to bugger off? If you are suggesting the paper made it all up don't you realise that it is illegal to publish so called quotes that were never said by the person?

The Argos may be a local paper but they aren't that stupid.

If i turn out to be wrong ill hold my hands up and say so but as far as im concerned its SPIN all the way for me.

How could you possibly be any more wrong? I am not being funny or having a go but to try sand suggest quotes from the Bulls coach on the Bulls site can't be believed because they first appeared in a local paper is ridiculous.

Dave

I couldn’t disagree with you more!

Is it not the case that you prefer to believe what Bradford are saying as opposed to what Lenegan has said?

If you are looking for justification that Bradford have deliberately misrepresented what may have been a perfectly normal enquiry as to a player’s availability and a request to register an interest in that player then consider the following sequence of events through the eyes of a Bulls fan:

• A new owner takes over the club and within a short time the relationship between the C.E.O. and the most successful coach in Super league (Noble) becomes untenable;
• Noble is allowed to leave to coach one of the club’s main rivals and shortly after signs one of the club’s star players and a firm favourite of the fans (Fielden);
• Another firm favourite, Peacock is allowed to leave for the club’s nearest rivals (Leeds);
• The club’s top scorer Leslie Vainikolo leaves for R.U.
• The club entertain Wigan in the play-off qualifiers (a home banker) and the new coach substitutes three main players with the score at 30 – 6 in order to save them for the next round. The away team coached by their former coach scores 25 unanswered points to win the tie;
Wigan make another approach for a Bulls player……….?
What would you do to restore faith in a dwindling support?

As a Wigan supporter, I prefer to believe Lenegan. I don’t care that he doesn’t make a public statement about Higham as to say anything else would give credence to Bradford’s stance. I don’t think Higham will be upset for too long as I’m sure Lenegan possesses enough interpersonal skills to calm the troubled waters.

Have some faith!!!!

[DaveO]

AncientWarrior posted:
I couldn’t disagree with you more!

You have missed the point. Two eyed Warrior is saying there is no evidence that NcNamara said these things, which is ridiculous. There is.

You are on about what the Bulls said being wrong not that they didn't say it. Which is a totally different thing.

Is it not the case that you prefer to believe what Bradford are saying as opposed to what Lenegan has said?

If you are looking for justification that Bradford have deliberately misrepresented what may have been a perfectly normal enquiry as to a player’s availability and a request to register an interest in that player then consider the following sequence of events through the eyes of a Bulls fan:

• A new owner takes over the club and within a short time the relationship between the C.E.O. and the most successful coach in Super league (Noble) becomes untenable;
• Noble is allowed to leave to coach one of the club’s main rivals and shortly after signs one of the club’s star players and a firm favourite of the fans (Fielden);
• Another firm favourite, Peacock is allowed to leave for the club’s nearest rivals (Leeds);
• The club’s top scorer Leslie Vainikolo leaves for R.U.
• The club entertain Wigan in the play-off qualifiers (a home banker) and the new coach substitutes three main players with the score at 30 – 6 in order to save them for the next round. The away team coached by their former coach scores 25 unanswered points to win the tie;
Wigan make another approach for a Bulls player……….?
What would you do to restore faith in a dwindling support?

I wouldn't fabricate a story about an offer being made for one of my players and another player being offered in exchange.

That is called lying and I would get found out. I would also leave myself open to legal action.

What I may do is tell the fans about how I told Wigan Newton isn't going anywhere and how I told them we didn't want the player they offered in exchange.

But I would only do that if that is what happened. I would not make it up because I am not stupid enough to tell porkies of that degree to the fans and media.

Neither is McNamara IMO.

As a Wigan supporter, I prefer to believe Lenegan. I don’t care that he doesn’t make a public statement about Higham as to say anything else would give credence to Bradford’s stance.

How would denying he offered Higham give credence to Bradfords stance? It would contradict everything Bradford said. Saying nothing is what gives credence to the idea that Higham was offered to the Bulls especially when it is plastered all over the Bulls web site and Wigan have not denied it (offering Higham).

I don’t think Higham will be upset for too long as I’m sure Lenegan possesses enough interpersonal skills to calm the troubled waters.

Maybe he does but as I have said we are supposed to be in a new era of openness and honesty so the comparative silence from Wigan isn't good enough. It is right out of the Mo book of shady deals. Say nothing and hope no one will notice. Unfortunately McNamara let the cat out of the bag.

When Bradford are prepared to put quotes up on their official web site from their coach saying Higham was offered to them and Wigan do not explicitly deny it, isn't it obvious he was offered? What other conclusion can be drawn?

Dave

[DaveO]

IL has now clarified the situation with a detailed post on the RLFANS web site.

http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php? ... &start=180

The upshot is the possibility of Newton being available was discussed but for it to happen both the Bradford coach would have had to agree and Mickey Higham would have to agree to transfer.

When Bradford said no that was supposed to be the end of it but what were confidential discussions got reported in the press.

So strictly speaking no offer was made because it didn't get that far (which is what I thought was allowing Wigan to deny an offer was made) but equally the possibility of the players moving in either direction had been discussed.

So when it came out Higham was understandably upset IMO.

So it boils down to if you think it was right for this possibility to be discussed in that way. Personally I can't see how Higham can have any other impression he is considered 2nd best to Newton by Wigan.

Dave

[AncientWarrior]

DaveO posted:

AncientWarrior posted:
I couldn’t disagree with you more!

You have missed the point. Two eyed Warrior is saying there is no evidence that NcNamara said these things, which is ridiculous. There is.

You are on about what the Bulls said being wrong not that they didn't say it. Which is a totally different thing.

Is it not the case that you prefer to believe what Bradford are saying as opposed to what Lenegan has said?

If you are looking for justification that Bradford have deliberately misrepresented what may have been a perfectly normal enquiry as to a player’s availability and a request to register an interest in that player then consider the following sequence of events through the eyes of a Bulls fan:

• A new owner takes over the club and within a short time the relationship between the C.E.O. and the most successful coach in Super league (Noble) becomes untenable;
• Noble is allowed to leave to coach one of the club’s main rivals and shortly after signs one of the club’s star players and a firm favourite of the fans (Fielden);
• Another firm favourite, Peacock is allowed to leave for the club’s nearest rivals (Leeds);
• The club’s top scorer Leslie Vainikolo leaves for R.U.
• The club entertain Wigan in the play-off qualifiers (a home banker) and the new coach substitutes three main players with the score at 30 – 6 in order to save them for the next round. The away team coached by their former coach scores 25 unanswered points to win the tie;
Wigan make another approach for a Bulls player……….?
What would you do to restore faith in a dwindling support?

I wouldn't fabricate a story about an offer being made for one of my players and another player being offered in exchange.

That is called lying and I would get found out. I would also leave myself open to legal action.

What I may do is tell the fans about how I told Wigan Newton isn't going anywhere and how I told them we didn't want the player they offered in exchange.

But I would only do that if that is what happened. I would not make it up because I am not stupid enough to tell porkies of that degree to the fans and media.

Neither is McNamara IMO.

As a Wigan supporter, I prefer to believe Lenegan. I don’t care that he doesn’t make a public statement about Higham as to say anything else would give credence to Bradford’s stance.

How would denying he offered Higham give credence to Bradfords stance? It would contradict everything Bradford said. Saying nothing is what gives credence to the idea that Higham was offered to the Bulls especially when it is plastered all over the Bulls web site and Wigan have not denied it (offering Higham).

I don’t think Higham will be upset for too long as I’m sure Lenegan possesses enough interpersonal skills to calm the troubled waters.

Maybe he does but as I have said we are supposed to be in a new era of openness and honesty so the comparative silence from Wigan isn't good enough. It is right out of the Mo book of shady deals. Say nothing and hope no one will notice. Unfortunately McNamara let the cat out of the bag.

When Bradford are prepared to put quotes up on their official web site from their coach saying Higham was offered to them and Wigan do not explicitly deny it, isn't it obvious he was offered? What other conclusion can be drawn?

Dave

I haven't missed the point at all! My point is that you are prepared to believe Bradford before your own Chairman. I don't think that's very loyal. Lenegan has denied making an offer full stop. Why should he need to elaborate on that?

You talk as if telling lies is something new to professional sport and that if you were found out then legal action is bound to follow. Get real! What possible legal action would succeed in these circumstances? Certainly not libel and unless they have enacted new legislation of, 'unlawfully and maliciously telling lies in order to make another Chairman look silly', I don't know what you're going on about.

In addition, when I talk about loyalty, I am mindful of the many people who view these boards from time to time who do not have the best interests of Wigan at heart. How gratifying it must be for them to see us denigrating the Chairman before his new club has kicked a ball in anger?

I say keep your counsel for now and give the man a chance.

[AncientWarrior]

DaveO posted:
IL has now clarified the situation with a detailed post on the RLFANS web site.

http://forums.rlfans.com/viewtopic.php? ... &start=180

The upshot is the possibility of Newton being available was discussed but for it to happen both the Bradford coach would have had to agree and Mickey Higham would have to agree to transfer.

When Bradford said no that was supposed to be the end of it but what were confidential discussions got reported in the press.

So strictly speaking no offer was made because it didn't get that far (which is what I thought was allowing Wigan to deny an offer was made) but equally the possibility of the players moving in either direction had been discussed.

So when it came out Higham was understandably upset IMO.

So it boils down to if you think it was right for this possibility to be discussed in that way. Personally I can't see how Higham can have any other impression he is considered 2nd best to Newton by Wigan.

Dave

So what you're saying is that you were wrong (on many, many posts) but you are not apologising?