The biggest failing of Wane

[Owd Codger]

Would be nice for you both to say something positive for a change!

When something positive happens I will. I usually do (!) and I will look forward to your acknowledgement when I do.

If you go back to the Madge era you will see plenty of positive stuff from me.

I was even in favour of Wane getting the job after Madge as I expected continuity and he had two years under Madge. But things change.

No sooner had he got the job but he started saying he

wasn't happy with how Madge had done things and how he was going to change it.

Now given he'd just ripped up my reasons for wanting him in the job in the first place I don't think me commenting on that is negative. It's just consistent with my previous view.

Things could change again. We could start seeing some better tactics and we could start being more competitive against the few top sides in the league. If we do, great and I will say so.

Dave. Madge was a great coach without doubt. Possibly the best we've ever had. He turned a decent side into a major force. Overnight, we became the team to beat. He put us top of the league early doors and we stayed there, going on to win the GF. We will always be grateful to him for that.

However, as became clear halfway through his 3 year contract, he came with his own agenda, which was to make a name for himself and land a good job back home. Again, I do not begrudge him that. But in doing so, he looked no further than the next game.

Wane's agenda is to keep Wigan at the top for the foreseeable future. He is blooding the youngsters who will hopefully be part of that future. Maguire wasn't interested in a legacy, building a platform for a future he had no intention of playing a part in!

Never was there also any intention of the club to have him on a permanent basis.

[cpwigan]

Not strictly true KW IMO. Madge brought players through steadily. IIRC, Faz said he appreciated at the time the regular cameo appearances off the bench and again IIRC it was during his tenure we finally started sending players out on loan / dual register/contract.

Figures / stats can be misleading. For example, we may have given XV players their debuts but was it planned or force and is appearance say for example Greenwood particularly useful?

Many of the structures were set up in the Madge era. For example; players at all grades following the same patterns / plans. Prior to that it always appeared to me Wane did his own thing and Noble likewise.

I do think Madge was somewhat bolder possibly in his first season but maybe less so once he announced he was leaving.

[morley pie eater]

Clearly true that Wane learned a lot from Madge - maybe Madge's greatest legacy? Also true that Wane's hand has been forced, to some extent, in playing youngsters. What impresses me about Wane is the faith he shows in younger players. Goulding is a prime example - badly handled by Nobby (eg dropped by Noble after a loss at Hull KR when he had arguably been our best player), and undervalued by Madge IMO.

What also needs to be said is that, whilst Madge deserves full credit for turning the club round, Wane hasn't had the players that he had by a million miles. We're not comparing the two on anything like a level playing field - more of a Mount Pleasant!

[markill]

You have to ask yourself who did Madge not play in 2011 that Wane played in 2012 that was ready for a 1st team spot back in 2011? Timing can bring about a large number of circumstances that effect the decisions that are made, not all are self-motivated.

[DaveO]

Dave. Madge was a great coach without doubt. Possibly the best we've ever had. He turned a decent side into a major force. Overnight, we became the team to beat. He put us top of the league early doors and we stayed there, going on to win the GF. We will always be grateful to him for that.

However, as became clear halfway through his 3 year contract, he came with his own agenda, which was to make a name for himself and land a good job back home. Again, I do not begrudge him that. But in doing so, he looked no further than the next game.

Wane's agenda is to keep Wigan at the top for the foreseeable future. He is blooding the youngsters who will hopefully be part of that future. Maguire wasn't interested in a legacy, building a platform for a future he had no intention of playing a part in!

I think markill makes a good point re blooding players that while the statistics are as they are on debuts given it doesn't mean they were as ready in 2011 as 2012.

Wane has also been forced into blooding many players and he himself has quite rightly said they will be withdrawn for a rest when 1st team players are fit but for me when Wane has deliberately blooded players he's not always got it right such as Widnes last season. I also don't think blooding further young players when the side is depleted by injury and already has a few in there is very sensible.

I think this maybe because Wane has too much faith in the kids which leads to decisions like Murphy in a semi-final.

As to Madge taking a short term view and Wane a longer term one Wane is taking a risk there. He won't IMO get the chance to take such a view if he doesn't deliver some silverware this year or next.

The most important thing about Madge's tenure for me though was something you say yourself. "He turned a decent side into a major force." That showed the value of a good coach and why I had hoped Wane would carry on with the same methods and most importantly I don't see why he could not have done that and still built his legacy or whatever.

In fact I think if he had adopted Madge's tactics we'd have a better chance of winning something and so he'd have a better chance of building such a legacy.

[cpwigan]

One aspect re youth. Sometimes you need the older head. Deacs was on his last legs but still VITAL to achieving success. The extremes you need to avoid are Noble and the Millward Era.

I hate the tinkering with Academy levels ETC. Westy playing and coaching the Alliance teams was vital in developing those young plyers at the time. He also recruited Dave Beswick an amateur scrum half to guide the youngsters.

IMO the RFL should have created more rep football at Academy Level such as a 3 match academy origin etc.

[NeeNawWarrior22]

Evening All,

First of all big well done to the boys, thought it was a decent performance. Matty played very well, best player on the pitch IMO.

Terry O'Connor touched upon it during the post analysis on Sky that he believes the Wigan boys WANT to play for Wane and ENJOY playing for him.

For those fans who know more than the average fan in terms of the inside knowledge of the club, do you think/know this is the case?
It's just I believe the Wigan fans, in majority, support Wane and his style of play that he wants to play, but I am led to believe there are a decent proportion of fans who are not a fan of SW, in general and also on this forum. I'd be interested to know how the players find him?

There's been well documented problems last year between Gaz Hock and SW, although I do not know the REAL specifics of that.
IM a fan of SW personally.

[josie andrews]

We've already had a couple of threads covering this topic!

Merged

[cpwigan]

Nee Naw the players dislike IL far more than Wane. Several mock IL in private and refer to him as a tash faced bar steward. Unless Wane makes errors of judgement why would 'very young' players who have known him often for a large part of their careers dislike him. To the best of my knowledge he has little to do with contractural matters so he is only dealing with day to day coaching matters.

You have to remember that neither Noble nor Madge were disliked by the players either. Arguably both, certainly Madge had far more 'attraction' to star Antipodean players and once Madge went those players went too. Moreover, Wane has been unable to influence players that he has coached from leaving for a variety of reasons (many far beyond Wane's control but equally his 'pull' has not prevented them) such as Sam, Hock, Mossop, Pat and Tuson this season and others like Tommy in the previous season.

Wigan fans? IMO are concerned about success first and foremost. If you asked fans would they forego success (CC or GF win) for entertainment IMO they would want success above all else and ideally both. Wane will never have a better opportunity than 2013 to deliver a CC win given our luck in the draw. 80 minutes v either Wire or Hull could secure Wane a new contract and the support of 99.9% of Wigan fans.

[NeeNawWarrior22]

Nee Naw the players dislike IL far more than Wane. Several mock IL in private and refer to him as a tash faced bar steward. Unless Wane makes errors of judgement why would 'very young' players who have known him often for a large part of their careers dislike him. To the best of my knowledge he has little to do with contractural matters so he is only dealing with day to day coaching matters.

You have to remember that neither Noble nor Madge were disliked by the players either. Arguably both, certainly Madge had far more 'attraction' to star Antipodean players and once Madge went those players went too. Moreover, Wane has been unable to influence players that he has coached from leaving for a variety of reasons (many far beyond Wane's control but equally his 'pull' has not prevented them) such as Sam, Hock, Mossop, Pat and Tuson this season and others like Tommy in the previous season.

Wigan fans? IMO are concerned about success first and foremost. If you asked fans would they forego success (CC or GF win) for entertainment IMO they would want success above all else and ideally both. Wane will never have a better opportunity than 2013 to deliver a CC win given our luck in the draw. 80 minutes v either Wire or Hull could secure Wane a new contract and the support of 99.9% of Wigan fans.

Thanks for the response CP, personally I wasn't getting at any 'failings of Wane' so don't know why this has been merged but I appreciate the response!
For my own curiosity CP, why do the players take a dislike to IL? Contract issues etc?
Personally, as a Wigan fan I want success, I believe Wane can provide that. What's your opinion: success or entertaining rugby?
What's your personal opinion of IL?