Worried that the future Wigan will be awful to watch

[cpwigan]

The worry I have is that Saints style is clearly the most successful in SL. Catalan try to play similarly. Hull try to. Wakey try to. Believe it or not IMO Nobby would like Wigan to. Now opposition fans can hark on about jealous whatever. WRONG. I am finding this style of play increasingly boring to the point I no longer want to watch it be it Wigan or anybody else.

If Saints fans are honest their past teams even the losing ones pre Millward were far more exciting. It has reached a stage where we are heading to every team playing yardage, zero risk, complete, kick chase hard, tackle like demons. The winner is deemed by which teams breaks first either physically or mentally by losing patience and wanting to try to play rugby. If more SL teams get more up to date NRL coaches this situation is going to get a whole lot worse quicker.

The problem is we do not have the players that add that little extra as the Aussies do. SL will never produce an Andrew Johns or a Sonny Bill Williams. The quality of player in SL is simply not good enough which means they cannot execute great play amongst the repetitive sets of bash crash bang wallop. Look at the Saints display. In the pack the most skillful player was virtually non existent (Wilkin) The rest of the pack are tremendously hard working BUT not one does anything that is going to leave you astounded or impressed. Even the glimmer of talent (Roby) has to wait until as Anderson hiself puts it KC has 'bashed em' KC was once such a dynamic player. He ran from dummy half with tremendous speed for a chunky monkey. Now he is nothing but an extra prop. The backs are epitomised by Wellens. Tremendous professional BUT who would you rather watch? Bowen? Hunt? Stewart? McKinnon? Merrit? Webb even? The outside back. Big, solid BUT earth shattering skill? Half backs? Is Pryce a stand off? He is in this modern caveman SL. He is ideal. Passing is not required. A big 6 who can barge over himself is much better. Would anybody descrive Leon Pryce as a playmaker? Long has magic, does it still exist? worryingly does it matter?

The Challenge Cup is not unusual. The WCC, Saints blunted a weakened Broncos, last years play offs? How much quality rugby? Saints outlasted opposition teams in the battle of patience.

So what? Well fine BUT when viewers start switching off, when TV companies start thinking why pay for an unattractive product, when fans stop attending? when sponsors start asking why sponsor a sport that is boring? Then is the time to think if only.

The rules of the game desperately need looking at. Ways to encourage expansive rugby must be looked at. Reward positive play, punish negative play. Look at issues like the interchange. Reduce it. What other sport has such a ridiculous luxury?

BORED and worried my own team will have to become a mirror image.

[robjoenz]

cpwigan posted:
The rules of the game desperately need looking at. Ways to encourage expansive rugby must be looked at. Reward positive play, punish negative play. Look at issues like the interchange. Reduce it. What other sport has such a ridiculous luxury?

BORED and worried my own team will have to become a mirror image.

I can see your point regarding how the game is played (though it doesn't bother me as much as you - I like to see good defence as well as good attack).

What rule changes would you suggest? One you suggested on another thread (reducing players on the field to 11 or 12 whilst defending) sounds a very difficult one to police to me.

I think you may have a point regarding interchanges, but why were they changed up to 12 in the first place?

[lucky 13]

Just to play devil's advocate , but is the feeling you have now what a lot of opposition fans felt when we were so much better and professional , the rest of the teams in SL are playing catch up to saints but the rest of the comp is more even(not better)this seems to be resulting in more fans turning up . All our victories were not achieved with champagne rugby in fact one of the best games I saw was a Lancashire cup final against saints at Knosley rd and not a try scored.

The team who's attendances are maybe suffering are saints , this could be down to the ground or as you say the way they play although from what I see they still score some (pains me to say) outstanding RL tries, maybe the fans pick games all the finals they go to cost money :eusa16: :eusa16: :alie: .

I watched some of the old games and RL interviews with Hanley last night , I would agree with you that we are producing less outstanding players who can produce a magic play but its only time that will show if this turns full circle , playing styles change to get around and break defensive patterns and this may happen at some point the result being the next Hanley
although I think he would still be awesome in todays game , he could play anywhere and didn't make a lot of mistakes and his defense wasn't bad either (can't remember him missing a tackle).

So the game as changed for the better? well not for us but who knows whats round the corner ,seems a while since my last game was on hols for the Huddersfield game so counting down now for Friday.

[Doveoverdave]

CPW you could have cut & paste this post from 20 years ago. It is the same theory that was expoused when the Aussie power game first came to the fore.

RL is an ever evolving game that has the imaginative coaching and innovative players to keep producing the most entertaiainig sport on the planet.

Things aren't as bleak as you think and you would hopefully have a mind change when/if we start to win trophies again. Remember under Graeme Lowe we had the most dour style in the league, won trophies, crowds up, let the good times role!

We need to win first before we have the luxury to discuss in what manner we win in.

[Cruncher]

Worried that the future Wigan will be awful to watch is a slight improvement on how I've felt in recent seasons, which was that in future there wouldn't be any Wigan to watch.

To be honest, I think this thread is a bit trite. Whether you regard Saints as boring or not, the fact is that every match they score a hatful of tries - some dour, some spectacular.

I remember the long-ago days when we used to score so many tries, and how I yearn for them to return.

it wouldn't matter to me if we pushed over for a try ten times a match, so long as every one of them counted. The mind still boggles that we have one of the most creative players in SL at stand-off and have only passed the 30 points mark three times all season.

As someone else said, before we start losing sleep about which is the best way to win, we ought to try and work out how we actually can win. Because this basic ability of RL seems to be eluding us at present.

One thought: if a Wigan team of yesteryear - not necessarily one of the top sides - needed a couple of big wins out of its remaining three fixtures to make the Premiership (as it was called then), a relegation team like Salford would be facing the hiding of its life on Friday evening. They'd lose by 50 points or more. Does anyone seriously expect that to happen this time?

[cpwigan]

Possibly. Unfortunately, in ANY sport improving defence is far easier than improving attack. I think that is what happened in say football 20 years ago and since then. In RL the same has undoubtedly been happening from 1982 onwards when the Kangaroos exposed our failings. There is a period that whilst defence improves it is still possible to play adventurous rugby league, particularly if you have the players. Unfortunately, you eventually reach a point when that no longer becomes possible. I think we have reached that point aided and abetted perhaps by rule changes. Having reached that point, you have no choice BUT to mirror the style in order to win. If you take risks it backfires. Brisbane found that in the WCC and they are an NRL team. If you look at the Catalan victory over us in the Semi. Cats played ultra safe and waited for our mistakes. Sure enough it worked. Look at the teams we lose to, the Wakeys, Hull KRs. They all play the same way.

What is the answer. The easy one and the one I fear is to replicate what is successful. I garuntee that had Catalan been fresher and fitter we would have seen a 0-0 score at HT.

The rules need to be looked at. Something that may create shock horror is a suggestion that 5 yards was better than 10 yards. Why? anything that makes it possible to gain easy yards by scooting/one out charges is bad. Therein lies a problem. As it stands. If referees increase the speed of tackle completion all that does is encourage scooting / one out yardage drives. 5 yards makes it more difficult and requires rugby skills.

The interchange desperately needs changing. As it stands, individual endurance has become less important. Teams fatigue more slowly. The biggest drain on energy is defending. If individual players have to do more defence they will become more prone to mistakes and create more open play.

An area I would look at is surrendering which is the modern version of a voluntary tackle. You will hear coaches talk about 'finding the floor' What the? What happened to hit the space, try to break through. Much easier to scoot, surrender, quick play of the ball, scoot .... Maybe surrendering should be punished. Therein slowing up the POTB and negating scooting.

More radical remove players from the defending team.

I honestly do not have the perfect answer BUT I do know that at time you see more rugby at academy level than SL level and I kept thinking during the RLCC Final, this is not much different from how dour Union can be. That for me has always been an important difference, league was about exciting passing and running. Union was kick/clap.

[jame1]

It is always difficult to change the rules in order that the rugby is attrative to watch.I go back further than most of you,when there where no subs, lose a man injured and it was the end almost everytime.I agree.that the No. of changes should be cut,four would probably be better, it would allow some players a rest and replacement for injuries.Most of the rule changes over the last few years have led to a much faster and attractive game to watch.But,coaches get the sack for losing games so they will always concentrate on defence.Only training will improve the skill level and then be given a chance to take the skills onto the field.Perhaps they should look at the way the scrums are played,how many times does a team lose a scrum. If the pack was held tight for just fraction longer the ball could be got to the halves and threequaters easier.This could also bring back the lost skill of hooking.

[cpwigan]

I would love to see scrum whereby the forwards had to remain attached longer to the scrum. I hate it when the ball is passed to the stand off and all of a suddern he has half a pack of forwards upon him.

[lucky 13]

cpwigan posted:
I would love to see scrum whereby the forwards had to remain attached longer to the scrum. I hate it when the ball is passed to the stand off and all of a suddern he has half a pack of forwards upon him.

To remove players is not the answer , the one above is something I have wanted for years . if you made the forwards bind until the first tackle or even the first play the ball at least we may see some good moves from scrums , a chance to see backs on backs reducing the yards is somthing else that could increase skill level but the scrum thing should be looked at.

[cpwigan]

I hate our scrum moves lucky or rather the lack of them. As you say forwards need to be kept in to at least give the opportunity for teams to put a play on.