COley an fitzpatrick

[butt monkey]

It is safe to assume, having already seen Wigan with Hodgeson playing for them. That he is unlikely to have altered, mentally, approach-wise or in attitude to how he served the club previously. Come the "big game" he will still look like the "Jack Rabbit" player, caught in the headlight - a la Salford's play off match v Bradford last season. (I know he wasn't the only one).

It is not reasonably fair, to make that same assumption on Coley or Fitzpatrick - Yet. Wigan have in the past, signed numerous unheralded players (Hall, Cowie, McGinty, Panapa, Byrne etc) who were really popular, despite their lack of "star" status. If they show the required attitude and respond to being in a more (hopefully) "Professional" environment, I will deffer my judgement if both players are announced as signings for next season.

[thegimble]

As for Saints have 13 international stars. Some of them are not good enough they are there becase they play for a very good side.

Gardner is not a patch on most international wingers and neither is quite a few of them.

Pryce is not good enough and is there because GB has not had a good 6 for a long time

Graham is there as he plays in a side that is going forward it is easy to look good in a side that is playing well.

Gidley would not get into the Oz set up now.

Even Wilkin is not as good as Sculthorpe was in his prime or Faz is. Dont confuse international caps with class. Its a sign of the time over here that mediocrite rules.

[DaveO]

thegimble posted:
As for Saints have 13 international stars. Some of them are not good enough they are there becase they play for a very good side.

Gardner is not a patch on most international wingers and neither is quite a few of them.

Gardner is the only player in the starting 17 that looks out of place as regards his quality.

Pryce is not good enough and is there because GB has not had a good 6 for a long time

He still costs money and is a GB international. He is/was one of the best players available at the time Saints picked him up. He isn't a squad player by any means.

Graham is there as he plays in a side that is going forward it is easy to look good in a side that is playing well.

Gidley would not get into the Oz set up now.

Both these players would walk into our side. Gidely may not get into the Oz set up but arguably Barrett would not either but they are both class players in this league.

Saints have got a class 17 which as others have pointed out is quite a feat money-wise when you think about it. I also am suspicious about how they do it but did you read Martyn Sadlers column in the match day program v Salford?

He basically argues its the off-field management of Saints that has allowed them to recruit so well. He mentions the fact they pioneered the use of off-shore payments and payments to players image rights companies as a way to make the cap go further and he basically applauds them for this.

I myself suspect there is something fishy going on as well but that does not get away from the fact Saints know how to play the system to achieve a starting 13 second to none in this league.

Dont confuse international caps with class. Its a sign of the time over here that mediocrite rules.

Of all the sides in SL Saints are the least mediocre of the lot if you like. It amounts to the same thing in that they have achieved success by spending money on their first 17 players. Regardless of whether we think they are mediocre or not they have more players in their first 17 that are considered top players in this country than any other side.

If we are to emulate their success we need to do the same thing. Not sign players who would be "squad players" (if the concept of a squad was valid any more) but in actual fact will be taking top 20/25 slots up which means they ought to be more than that IMO.

Dave

[DaveO]

Exiled Wiganer posted:
Dave - please tell us who you think we can and should sign. Given the level of thought you give to other matters, i would be interested to hear it.

As a minimum We need a prop, a centre and a full back.

Carvell's name has been mentioned and he is a good solid genuine prop so that would be OK. For centres we need a strike centre like King or Webster. We should have got one of those but missed out. For full back I would go for the Aussie Hodgeson (not David from Salford).

We ought to have been able to compete with HKR for Webster and I certainly do not think it would have been impossible to add Carvell, Webster and Hodgdon to our team given DV and Fletcher are off and we have a salary cap credit for £110K nnext season.

So we need an equivalent centre to those we missed out on. Whether we can find any I don't know but the club ought to be looking!

And before someone says "but the credit is only for next season" come 2009 several other contracts are up so I am sure the situation could be managed.

So those are the class players I would go for over and above Coley and Fitzpatrick neither of whom I see as improving us at all.

If we got those AND those two Salford players I'd still wonder why we were not spending their wages on another genuine prop and/or centre.

Dave

[lancaster077]

According to League Weekly Newspaper Wigan have signed Andy Coley so its penalties galore next year, Why are Wigan so c*ap at signing players he is an awfull player.

There is just no ambition with Wigan anymore and no desire to win anything either.

[lancaster077]

the big i posted:
It says in League Weekly that Coley is near enough a done deal, Fitzpatrcik has been approached and there is talk of Alker coming in as Millard's replacement!

All the people that have dismissed this thread will be eating there words.And the words of Micky Higham could not have been any more true.

This will be announced very soon.

[Warrior4eva]

Players need to develop and play in a good team.

4 Years ago if Wigan were rumoured to be buying Gardner (Barrow), Wilkin (Hull KR) bringing Gilmour back after Bradford didn't want to keep him and we would have up roar. These players were given a chance, brought into a good team and would have been offered relitively lower contracts then the rest of the St's players. They have developed into good quality players but none are stars, just in a great team, with great team ethic.

Wigan gave chances to youngsters but ship em out after 1 or 2 seasons. There expected to become stars overnight but need 2 to 3 years to gel to become a very good team. Under Gregory I thought were going in the right direction only to see all our youngsters and past players reaching their prime moving to other teams. You only have to look around the super league and see the past players who are doing well. Robinson, Hodgson, Brown, Aspinwall, Gilmour, Tickle, Briscoe I could go on and on. Young players who don't command a massive wage but would then get paid more gradually as they get already and command better wages and when the club reaches the salary cap then more youngsters are brought in to replace a high earner. Vaeliki's wage £170k (I heard anyway) could subsidise 7 youngsters on £24k and wouldn't count on 20/25.

Wigan seem to want to buy the finished article and pay bigger wages for them. They then just replace them with another big earner and are constantly on the edge of the salary cap.

[ian.birchall]

Warrior4eva posted:

Look at the Bradford team would you say on paper Platt (Former Cas) McAvoy, Harris, Evans and Tupou/St Hilaire were a good set of backs.
Our players are too comfortable and from what I hear theres a bit of unrest in camp.

Back to Wigan for next season??

[thegimble]

Warrior4eva posted:
Players need to develop and play in a good team.

4 Years ago if Wigan were rumoured to be buying Gardner (Barrow), Wilkin (Hull KR) bringing Gilmour back after Bradford didn't want to keep him and we would have up roar. These players were given a chance, brought into a good team and would have been offered relitively lower contracts then the rest of the St's players. They have developed into good quality players but none are stars, just in a great team, with great team ethic.

Wigan gave chances to youngsters but ship em out after 1 or 2 seasons. There expected to become stars overnight but need 2 to 3 years to gel to become a very good team. Under Gregory I thought were going in the right direction only to see all our youngsters and past players reaching their prime moving to other teams. You only have to look around the super league and see the past players who are doing well. Robinson, Hodgson, Brown, Aspinwall, Gilmour, Tickle, Briscoe I could go on and on. Young players who don't command a massive wage but would then get paid more gradually as they get already and command better wages and when the club reaches the salary cap then more youngsters are brought in to replace a high earner. Vaeliki's wage £170k (I heard anyway) could subsidise 7 youngsters on £24k and wouldn't count on 20/25.

Wigan seem to want to buy the finished article and pay bigger wages for them. They then just replace them with another big earner and are constantly on the edge of the salary cap.

Nice post and correct.

[DaveO]

Warrior4eva posted:
Wigan gave chances to youngsters but ship em out after 1 or 2 seasons. There expected to become stars overnight but need 2 to 3 years to gel to become a very good team.

The problem with this argument is that in order to keep youngsters at the club it has to pay them a wage and after 2 or 3 years these players will not want to still be on academy level wages.

With the 20/25 (yes that again) who out of the top 20 makes way so the younger players can have a pay rise?

The other thing that springs to mind is that John Monie said if you get 2 or 3 players worthy of 1st grade RL from a champion U21 side you are doing well.

I agree with this and it means you will have a steady turnover of young players leaving the club. This is especially true at Wigan where the club runs two full junior sides U18 and U21. At the end of each season several of the U21's are likely to be no longer eligible to play in the U21's in the next season so what is the club supposed to do? Upgrade them all to first team contracts but have them sitting about on the sidelines?

Under Gregory I thought were going in the right direction only to see all our youngsters and past players reaching their prime moving to other teams. You only have to look around the super league and see the past players who are doing well. Robinson, Hodgson, Brown, Aspinwall, Gilmour, Tickle, Briscoe I could go on and on. Young players who don't command a massive wage but would then get paid more gradually as they get already and command better wages and when the club reaches the salary cap then more youngsters are brought in to replace a high earner. Vaeliki's wage £170k (I heard anyway) could subsidise 7 youngsters on £24k and wouldn't count on 20/25.

So what happens to these 7 youngsters if they are not making the 1st 17? They can't drop back down to the U21's. I think you will find most of the players you listed above were on more than £25K a year when they left Wigan. And none of them with the possible exception of Gilmour have been that great a loss. They just aren't that good.

Wigan seem to want to buy the finished article and pay bigger wages for them. They then just replace them with another big earner and are constantly on the edge of the salary cap.

Saints are also on the edge of the salary cap as evidenced by they fact they have broken it three times. They sail close to the wind in this regard and get away with a small fine for just going over. Its enough to make you think they do it deliberately!

Wigan have Hock, Lockers and Hansen who came through the academy and are now established players. McIllorum and Goulding are signed up for next season. I think Prescott and O' Carroll are as well.

Any good side need a balance of youth and experience. Our current team has enough youngsters in it despite how many we have let go over recent seasons. We need an experienced prop and centre.

I expect to hear of some youngsters being released at the end of the season because that is just the way it is.

Dave