COley an fitzpatrick

[butt monkey]

I would say Dave, that St Helens are the exception to the rule, in that they ARE a TEAM of winners. That side has been built up over a number of years with many of their senior players at a similar age. (And have been relatively lucky as regards to long term injuries over the last few years - Sculthorpe withstanding)

Wigan do not have that luxury. We need to sign quality - but not at the expense of throwing all our eggs in to the one basket. Wigan cannot, however, just sign numerous cheap alternatives just to make squad numbers up! - Catch 22 I think!

We also have problems regarding the lethargic and sometimes downright lazy performances, which, IMO are down to lack of competition for places. This has been muted by Nobby himself over his tenure ship! (If not front page headlines, this has been said off-record, his critical comments of his players not following instructions and failing to put what has been trained upon into their performances).

[DaveO]

butt monkey posted:
I would say Dave, that St Helens are the exception to the rule, in that they ARE a TEAM of winners. That side has been built up over a number of years with many of their senior players at a similar age. (And have been relatively lucky as regards to long term injuries over the last few years - Sculthorpe withstanding)

The Saints team has a number of players in it who are genuine quality and so must cost a lot of their salary cap. Those outside the first 17 squad numbers are all kids bar two players.

If you look at Wigan's squad it started the season at 25 (with Withers and Ashton included) and while this is probably a couple of players down due to the expectation the club would be paying deferred payments to players, the important thing is the make up is the same as Saints

That is the first 17 are established players but beyond that they are kids.

Wigan do not have that luxury. We need to sign quality - but not at the expense of throwing all our eggs in to the one basket. Wigan cannot, however, just sign numerous cheap alternatives just to make squad numbers up! - Catch 22 I think!

We also have problems regarding the lethargic and sometimes downright lazy performances, which, IMO are down to lack of competition for places. This has been muted by Nobby himself over his tenure ship!

We do have a an attitude problem IMO but the idea competition for places is the solution is simply not practical.

This is one of the points I am trying to make. Competition for places implies capable players outside of the usual first team who are pushing for a place.

The 20/25 doesn't allow this. You can see that in Both Wigan and Saints squads when you look at how they are made up.

So if attitude is a problem there has to be a different solution because I can't see how you can have sufficient good players at a club to offer genuine competition for places with the 20/25 rule in force.

IMO class players like Barrett do not have this attitude problem. Neither do the likes of Highsm, Calderwood and Richards.

So what Wigan need IMO is more players in that precious top 20 list out of the same mould as that lot. I have my doubts the Salford players we are linked with are.

Dave

[butt monkey]

I understand exactly what your saying Dave - we need to sign players with a "WINNING" attitude. Players who hate to lose more than the fans do.

This isn't exactly easy, and in this pampered lifestyle for so many "sports stars" it makes it even harder to find these players, which Wigan require.

[DaveO]

butt monkey posted:
I understand exactly what your saying Dave - we need to sign players with a "WINNING" attitude. Players who hate to lose more than the fans do.

Exactly. My view is that one of the attributes that makes a great player great is that winning attitude.

They can be very skilful but if they don't apply themselves it is wasted.

This isn't exactly easy, and in this pampered lifestyle for so many "sports stars" it makes it even harder to find these players, which Wigan require.

It isn't easy because they are in demand but I think it is easy to spot players with the right attitude. They stand out.

It also means IMO that you are going to have to pay a high wage to get such players in your team.

My positions is I don't see a problem with this because given the 20/25 precludes the alternative - which is a big squad giving true competition for places, so then you need as many players in that select top 20 players to have the right attitude and skills as possible. Hopefully this then rubs off on the young players outside the top 20 that makes up the rest of the squad.

IMO we have about four or five such players in the current squad and I don't see the Salford players adding to that total.

Dave

[thegimble]

DaveO posted:

thegimble posted:
Medlocke is correct. Sigining major stars weaken sides drastically in the calibre of bench players. The 3 mentioned id be more than happy with. Especially Alker hes very good.

We have superstars on good wages we dont have enough good cover players on the bench and it shows against Saints and sides with big packs.

I could not disagree more.

These other sides manage to have star players in then. Look at Saints and Leeds. They have a squad and they have top class players as well.

This notion that what you really want is a squad of average to good players does not wash.

Once again it needs saying that the 20/25 limits how you spend a very large chunk of the salary cap.

So it is easily possible to have star players in a side on quite big wages.

Given you can only have 20 well paid players I would therefore say not only can you have a few star players but you NEED a few star players if you are to entertain any hope of winning anything.

What you also need is some luck with injuries that keeps your top 20 players fit and that is regardless of whether you have any star players amongst the top 20 in your side.

As to Alker we certainly don't need him when we have Higham and McIllorum and lets not forget Millard is not confirmed to be leaving and originally came on a two year deal. We don't need four hookers at the club.

Dave

Saints dominate SL at the moment due to having a better 14-18 than anyother side. Almost every side have Star players.

Bulls - Deacon, Hape, Morrison
Leeds - Lauititi, Sinfield, Peacock
Wigan - Barrett, Feka, Richards
WArrington - Briers, Morley, King (next year)

This is the point im making every side has what we regard as a superstar player. You can get 3-4 in a team and have a more balanced side, than if u had 6-8 of them.

SL is now not won by the best team but the best squad and Saints have that. Pay for the big name players and see what will happen. Sorry we have done that during SL era and we do not hold a candle to Saints.

Saints 1-13 is just as good as ours not much better if any. 13-19 they are way ahead. They have a better balance than us. We must stop signing players that take 2 good player spot on the cap. We have a good team just not a good squad.

And please dont go on about we had a great sqaud the cap evens it all out. Its now about managing the cap which we are awful at.

[DaveO]

thegimble posted:
SL is now not won by the best team but the best squad and Saints have that. Pay for the big name players and see what will happen. Sorry we have done that during SL era and we do not hold a candle to Saints.

Saints 1-13 is just as good as ours not much better if any. 13-19 they are way ahead.

Totally disagree. The reason Saints are at the top is because their first 17 is better than anyone else's.

Look at the list of players I posted that are outside of their top 17. Only two are experienced players. The rest are kids.

Saints have invested heavily in their top 17 and certainly have more than three or four top class players. What they have done is invest heavily in several big name players.

These players are the likes of Long, KFC, Sculthorpe, Gidley, Cayless and Wellens.

Also players like Roby, Gilmore, Meli, Gardner and Wilkin are hardly what you might call poor but are establish players of high quality.

They have a better balance than us. We must stop signing players that take 2 good player spot on the cap. We have a good team just not a good squad.

Saints don't have a good squad either in the sense you mean. They have 19 class players many of whom are internationals and the rest of of their 30 player squad is kids.

And please dont go on about we had a great sqaud the cap evens it all out. Its now about managing the cap which we are awful at.

It is pretty clear to me Saints success is down to being able to have more than a few players of genuine class in their top 17. That means they are better at managing the cap than we are.

What isn't the case is that they adopt the "big squad" approach as opposed to the "big stars" approach because it is quite plan to see their first 17 is full of star players and there players outside the first 19 are kids.

Dave

[thegimble]

Saints 1-13 are just as good for me as Leeds and Bulls and Even us if we play well.

In all the games weve lost to them this season its the bench thats too good for us. Games are generally close for the first 15-20 minutes then they are just as strong when they interchange.

We are not.

[pedro]

So like he said a very good 17

[Exiled Wiganer]

Dave - please tell us who you think we can and should sign. Given the level of thought you give to other matters, i would be interested to hear it.

FWIW, if the only players we sign are Coley and Fitzpatrick, I will jump off the nearest bridge with despair, but I suspect there will be a few more.

We are losing/have lost:
DV (big money)
Fletcher (big money)
Ashton (20/25 player but not massive money)
Withers (assume middling money)
Millard - please god - (asssume middling money)

We have the "deferred payemnts" money, which, if it's over 100k gives us big money.

The name of the game isn't quality so much as value for money. In my opinion, if we can sign Coley for Withers' wages and Kirkpatrick for Ashton's then we'll have done a good deal. If we pay them DV and Fletcher wages then they'll be a terrible deal - absent that, or the full picture of whom we will sign, then I can't see how we can comment.

If we sign them, then we still need 2 good backs, who can play full back and centre and a good prop.

We do not need another hooker, unless we can offload Higham.

I would be pleased with Walker, as there is a dearth of decent centres.

If though, we sign, say Fitz and Coley, Carvell, Walker and the better Hodgson, we will be far better equipped next year than this. We ought to have the cash available to put together a roster like that.

As for Saints, their first 17 are all internationals. They have far more of them than any other team. There must be some reason for that anomaly. So, comparing us to them is an unfair comparison I'd say.

If we sign the folk I'd like to see then I think we'll see a much more dominant pack, a back line who can make breaks and at least one centre who can release his winger. We ought to be much better placed.

It is also worth bearing in mind that we have the 4th best playing record this year, with a squad which we mercilessly criticise. Of the tax paying teams we are not far away.

[lancaster077]

I agree there is something rotten in denmark.Nobody can tell me that Saints have all them players who are internationals or ex state of origin and oz players and still stay under the cap.

Almost the full 17 players are Internationals, I can guarantee that Fozzard, Wilkin and Graham will get more caps and you forgot Fasavalu who is a Samoan international and signed from union so i think people are underestimating his pay.

I know a lad who plays for Saints called Sean Weed he playes in the reserves and i also went to school and played in the same team as Ex Saints and Salford player Mark Edmonson and when Mark was at Saints he was payed a ton and he wasnt a big star, also Sean Weed who is in the reserves is payed good wages also.
So it beggars belif how much the top players are on.

So this springs to mind either 1.Wigan are paying too much for less than avarage players(so going for Coley and Fitzpatrick would defo convince me)
or 2.We dont know how to manage the salary cap.
or 3.What im thinking is true, That Saints and the top 3 are cheating the salary cap.

After all do players get try bonuses and extra payment for International apperances?