Let's not blame Klein!!

[turf]

Couldn't have put it better myself botica. An absolutely fantastic post!! :eusa2:

[cpwigan]

Ashley Klein & Co had a stinker of a game!! Why should he not take some of the blame, if i performed so badly at my job i would be sacked!

So what about the players? If a low paid office junior was more productive than the office manager? O'Carrol v Fielden. Oh you are even allowed the odd mistake in your real life job. Look at Turf

IL praised Klein bar the last 5 minutes. So how did he have a stinker. The last 2 matches have been far better than all those previous because the games have flowed.

[DaveO]

Which was greater Dave? The failings of the referee or our team?

I am not sure what the point of your question is. People seem to want to blame one or the other, the team or the ref. The point I am making is you can't do that. The fact Klien got the Dragons in the position to score at the death by a ridiculous mistake lead directly to the defeat. Had Richards been more accurate with the goals we would not have lost either but that doesn't stop us being able to point to Klien's ineptitude and nor should it excuse it.

Mr Ganson who I loathe but as I posted here that he had a good game v Leeds made some big mistakes too but they did not lead to tries. We won and everybody was happy. Well Wigan fans.

Could the Leeds fans complain? I don't think so. No one expects refs or players to be perfect but there are standards both need to reach before they are spared any criticism and Klien didn't get there on Friday IMO.

Dave

[turf]

Why are you mentioning my name cpwigan?!?!?

[cpwigan]

My point is very simple Dave. The referee is being blamed and criticised far more than the team whereas the reality is they are far more responsible.

The criticism of Klein is disproportionate and thus unfair. Even yours. He had a good game until possibly the last 5 minutes. So even you are OTT about his effort. I saw 3 controversial incidents. 1 - The referee has been proven correct. The other 2 nobody as yet knows whether he was correct or not.

Even if he was wrong we overcame a bigger blunder by Ganson at Leeds and won. Oddly or maybe not nobody critised that. Likewise in another sport, Arsenal scored a hand of God goal yet Man Uts went onto win. The referee was not criticised whatsoever. What would have been the reaction had Man Utd lost or drawn.

The game v Catalan flowed. The game v Leeds flowed. Those were the best officiated games we have had. The preceeding games were awful and when a referee gives 30+ penalties and sin bins players he has far more influence than either Ganson or Klein did.

Had we played better, had we been coached/managed better we would not even be having this discussion. We can only influence those things we control is a cliche in sport. Wigan RLFC do not do that well enough. So let's put that right and guess what the referee can be awful and we will still win.

[cpwigan]

Why are you mentioning my name cpwigan?!?!?

Turf quick there's somebody drowning

Be hushed you Lemon

[turf]

cpwigan, every time you post something, you are :conf: :conf: me a lot.

Why are you saying "be hushed"? I am only asking you why you mentioned my name. :conf: :conf:

[DaveO]

My point is very simple Dave. The referee is being blamed and criticised far more than the team whereas the reality is they are far more responsible.

The criticism of Klein is disproportionate and thus unfair. Even yours. He had a good game until possibly the last 5 minutes. So even you are OTT about his effort.

Nope. It is called cause and effect. The team had got itself into a wining position. It was winning with minutes to go and was in the lead. Everything that happened before that, both good and bad, had got the team into that position.

That position was then changed by Klien making an unacceptable error.

This is ignoring his general level of inconsistency throughout the match on forward passes and things others have discussed.

As to what IL said he does not have the luxery you or I do when commenting on refs (or players) so don't point to that as some sort of vindication of Klien's performance.

I saw 3 controversial incidents. 1 - The referee has been proven correct. The other 2 nobody as yet knows whether he was correct or not.

He was clearly wrong on the knock on. Even the Les cats player knew that.

Even if he was wrong we overcame a bigger blunder by Ganson at Leeds and won. Oddly or maybe not nobody critised that.

I don't see your point. Whatever Ganson did or didn't do has nothing to do with Friday's game.

Likewise in another sport, Arsenal scored a hand of God goal yet Man Uts went onto win. The referee was not criticised whatsoever. What would have been the reaction had Man Utd lost or drawn.

Well I don't know anything about that but there are enough TV replays in soccer to determine if the ref was right or wrong. I saw one the other week where he gave a penalty for a perfectly good tackle Man Utd v Roma. The Roma player missed by kicking over the bar. Justice was done but everyone still said the ref made a mistake.

I dare say after the match it wasn't a raging topic on football forums because the refs mistake did not affect the outcome and justice was done but I bet that phrase was used quite a bit. The fact we got shafted instead means it is a big topic. So what?

The game v Catalan flowed. The game v Leeds flowed. Those were the best officiated games we have had. The preceeding games were awful and when a referee gives 30+ penalties and sin bins players he has far more influence than either Ganson or Klein did.

And why is this relevant? He could have given no penalties all game and it wouldn't affect the criticisms he is getting for what he got wrong because it changed the result.

Had we played better, had we been coached/managed better we would not even be having this discussion. We can only influence those things we control is a cliche in sport. Wigan RLFC do not do that well enough. So let's put that right and guess what the referee can be awful and we will still win.

Well as I said before if we score 100 points a match we will be immune form such things.

Unfortunately what we seem to want is not us winning at a canter where the refs errors of the sort Klien made would not matter but close hard fought games.

Such games inevitably mean any huge blunder by the ref can alter the result. You can't say it was our fault alone when the ref is so inept in a close game because any close game by implication means the other side are going to score as well. Do they not deserve any credit for that and is it always our fault we lose?

I am convinced had Kline not done as he did we would have won that match whether we deserved to or not. What he did and when he did it was crucial and whatever we did right or wrong before then had got us into a winning position until Klien intervened. Pretty simple really and there is no need IMO for any philosophical debate about it because he clearly influenced the result and refs should not do that.

Dave

[cpwigan]

lol Dave your priceless

Cause and effect. Every person on the field, every second of the game has a cause and effect. The event your discussing was not the last nor the decisive act in that match. So it did not have finite cause/effect. Wigan failing to stop Catalan going 60+ yards in a set. Mark Calderwood not being able to catch the ball were not down to Ashley Klein.

You seem to want to ignore the remainder of the match. Well I am sorry RL does not work like that. The latter stages of a match often depend on what has happened beforehand. As an example if a referee penalises a team heavily in the first half then they may not concede points in that half but the extra effort may well tell later on in the second half.

The great thing about this match was few penalties meant each team had to earn the right to field position. The team that had to work hardest was Wigan. We made more mistakes, we made less yards, we kicked far worse. Those couple of silly passes that went into touch etc = a heavy price later.

We had a coach who made poor tactical substitutions. Where would Coyle have been defending? Right next to Calderwood. He was took off. Nobody accounted for that in organising the team. Where was Lockers the replacement Stand off? He asn't covering Calderwood. Error by coaches/players. Cause/effect eh Dave

We lost that game because we rarely if ever put in a consistent 80 minutes of RL. Luckily most teams are ill disciplined and make enough errors for some very talented, superior talented individuals in our team to win us games. To allow them to do so we play what some might call negative RL. We win games but we underachieve week in week out. We play at what 60% according to our leader. Just think that extra 40% and Ashley Klein could do whatever he likes and we would still win.

[butt monkey]

I agree with DaveO!

As far as referees are concerned, they are the arbitrary decision makers on incidents throughout an 80 minute period of play.

Some decisions can be considered "contentious" or even downright "biased". This is not about constant whistle blowing for unflinchingly sticking to the rule book. Rarely can one referee ever have made so many judgements that decide the outcome of matches as Ashley. For the doubters on here defending him - watch this referee whenever he appears on t.v. (for neutral games) and decide for yourself IF this guy is either plain incompetent or worse, biased. You will be surprised to see a man favouring a particular side with some very peculiar decisions that cannot be easily explained by the commentators.

I have stated before on here, that he "loves" to penalise Wigan early (either in possession or defence - see lower). This generally "sets the tone" of the remainder of the game. It instantly puts the side on the "back foot". This is not seeing things through "cherry and white glasses" this is a statement of fact, he has a small time attitude that brings "big clubs" down a peg or too, in order for the lesser clubs to "assert" themselves on the field.

It is not wrong to say that Wigan should have won (and that they should have tackled better at the end), however, as has been debated over "cause and effect", Wigan were "spent" after some poor calls left them defending when they should have been in possession and attacking. It is not also wrong to say that the referee should not have made some important calls that ultimately decided the outcome either!

Another point in the first half, Catalans dropped the ball in their own twenty five, and Wigan gained possession, but were forced back attempting retention of the ball in "heavy traffic" and ultimately lost it again - where was the advantage to Wigan? Surely there should have been a scrum, head and feed to Wigan. Not for our Ashley! The "border-line" passes from Les Cats players, yet at the first "border-line" Wigan pass - forward pass was our Ashley's decision. The offsides where a joke after what had been penalised of late - but not for our Ashley! He didn't care if the Catalan players stood infront of him, never mind had both feet behind etc, etc, etc.

Pick and choose the rights and wrongs of his decisions, and you will see a man who more often that not, dictates who wins and loses, more than the actual performance of the teams on show.

If he ever officiated in the world of football, he would be harangued out the game forever after only a few of his trademark "cock-ups". The press and the managing fraternity would see to that - so why should the Rugby League loving public have to suffer him instead? He is not fit/competent/consistent to be a SL referee and should be demoted or sent back to Australia on the next available Quantas flight!