standard of refereeing

[Matthew]

How is that Mathers was referred to the Disciplinary for a shoulder charge against stains - yet Carvell headbuts Demtriou on TV and the BBC show a replay; yet he is not cited?

[pedro]

Because it was against Saints..

[robjoenz]

You said to me before what pre-game preparations should they do and now you say they do anyway. You are contradicting yourself and if they get selected on performance and they review stats/videos etc, then surely as mentioned before these standards are not sufficient SL standard and they must be replaced!!! :conf:

I was interested to know how you thought a referee should prepare. I know how I prepare and some others but I wanted your opinion.

[mike binder]

Yep like the weather refs, they blow hot and cold, or is that the whistle! Seriously though this is a snap decision and officials in all sports need to consult both their linesmen and come up with a suggested course of action.

Too many games are spoilt by rash quick decisions. To think sports like football bemoan the use of video technology, yet controversy is still rife there. But if people just take their time and decide rationally, we may not have spoilt games.

You may say we weren't good enough too, but that quick decision affected the morale of the team and good field position, hence the scores mounting against us.

Let's face it, it's a highly charged emotional derby and Klein should have factored that into his mind pre-game, do they pre-plan games? It doesn't seem to be the case. Yet these guys are somehow now, fulltime!!

Since the departure of Russell Smith, only Ian Smith has seemed to be fair (even when we lose!!) and with no real shockingly bad decisions. Yes we all make bad decisions and mistakes as human beings, but this is not the first time Klein has made bad decisions on TV and probably not his last, yet he is never demoted and Ian Smith is, you tell me the logic in that Mr. Cummings.

Are these guys performance levels monitored and is the word professional appropriate, as it seems to be as Amateur as it ever has been!

Rugby league is a fast sport and referees have to make decisions on the spot, not appropriate to go to the video referee for every decision, got to go with what's in front of them.

Naturally, referees get some decisions wrong, this frustrates people. A lot of decisions are 50-50 calls too... an attacker is looking to offload, the tackler is trying to lock the ball up, the ball comes loose, what's the decision? One set of fans think one thing, the rest think another - a decision has to to be made. One set of fans is left frustrated.

Out of interest... what sort of pre-game preparation do you think a referee should do? How do you think preparation for a big derby should be different to any other type of game? Should the approach to refereeing be any different once the game has started? If so, why?

If refereeing is getting worse, what can be done about it? I mean past the usual calls of 'sack Cummings.' What actually needs to be done to directly improve standards and consistency without detriment to the game?

rob why does the man up staırs send players off ıe mcculorum last week the whole ref system ıs a dasgrace and needs of re vamp cummıngs out young ref rob ın

[robjoenz]

Yes but Rob, The video referee can't rule on a forward pass!!!!! Not necessarily true about the last sentence either, as in football the coaches in a particular division, or at the G-8 summit which only involves big clubs making the calls and it is like Wigan, Saints, Leeds and Bradford making their concerns known and the RFL change them. But this is a lot more complex in football and as you know there are far more teams in football and a unified decision must be met by FIFA and UEFA for rule change, but as Union and League are in rugby rules can be different in the hemispheres, whereas it needs to be one set of rules for both.

Why do you think that internationally we suffer. We go into these games playing a set of rules from a kiwi ref that we don't understand and the Aussies smash us. Fine lines such as momentum etc are the finer lines which can be reduced to improve referee performance.

I agree with regards to playing different sets of rules. It is confusing but the RFL are under pressure from SL clubs and coaches to play the game the way they want it played, e.g. we rely on quick play the balls, the Aussies don't. NRL officials are under pressure from their clubs and coaches to officiate how they want. There is then the International set of interpretations (e.g. no quick taps, all controlled restarts).

Referees can pre-plan games by learning to realise who are the hot-heads to keep an eye on. In a derby match and let's face it IMO the biggest one, don't resort to rash decisions. Mcclorum's tackle was high yes but the saints player was slipping down as the momentum of the arm carried through.

I am not condoning the tackle, i am merely pointing out Klein should have taken the intensity of the situation (especially in the first ten minutes of a derby) to at least sin bin or put on report. The decision ruined the contest and while not as blatantly as Millenium Magic decisions by referee are affecting games, but in different ways, like sinbinning and mounting penalty counts.

Referees are aware of players who may cause them issues in a game, they've refereed these players before. I agree Wigan -v- Saints is a massive derby and that's why a strong referee was appointed to it.

The intensity of the game was great but that doesn't give any player permission to overstep the line of fair and foul. The timing of the incident doesn't come in to it either, if it warrants a red card in Wigan versus Whitehaven in the 70th minute, it warrants a red card in the 6th minute of Wigan versus Saints, for example.

The referee may have affected the outcome of the game, however, the key difference in this instance compared to Millennium Mayhem last year is that the officials got it right this time.

If McIllorum hadn't swung a high tackle in we wouldn't be discussing this now!

I have noticed (Wigan fault as well) that we have many penalties given away against us this season. I am well aware we are not performing that well, but it does seem apparent that there is a distinct count against us and the finer lines are given more against us.

You could say the other sides get away with cheating more discretely, or is this just "oh this is Wigan, they won loads in the past, about time another team had the rub of the green". I am not saying this is the case, but I have heard you mention in the past that referees often even the penalty count out, throughout the game. This is not that apparent at all in SL games I have seen.

Sides with poorer discipline give away more penalties. Sides like Saints and Leeds want quick play the balls and if the team tackling them don't dominate the tackle legally they sometimes try and slow it down beyond the rules, these type of things get penalised. Similarly, when sides are on the back foot they are tempted to not make the full 10 when going back in defence. Watch Saints in defence, they go back the 10, have time to turn around and then go. At worst they'll be marginally offside (e.g. fraction of a second too quick out of the blocks).

...I have heard you mention in the past that referees often even the penalty count out, throughout the game.

...by the way I have NEVER said this.

...you would need several more cameras for angles (for forward passes) and there wouldn't be time, but both touch judges should be consulted. Yes they are for a try, but i mean generally. If it is not forward the referee puts time back on and continues the count, after all with the penalty count the way it is at the moment, they certainly have the time for it now!

TJs call forward over the comms. system if they see a forward pass.

I am not sure about the tackle in the air rule, that is another thing I have debated with you in the past and people of the same team of the receiver, obstructing someone challenging and i believe if you are going for the ball, you should not be obstructed (as with any other tackle, that is not allowed!). I know if you rip it one on one it's allowed but if an extra man is blocking the oncoming challenger, it doesn't get deemed to be obstruction. What is the difference? That is obstruction!! Look at the definition in the dictionary and this is not black and white and life isn't no, but we can make life simpler, by simplifying these things can't we?

Every player has the right to be somewhere on the field. A player can stop still in someones path but he cannot change his path to obstruct someone.

[robjoenz]

rob why does the man up staırs send players off ıe mcculorum last week the whole ref system ıs a dasgrace and needs of re vamp cummıngs out young ref rob ın

Do you know that for a fact Mike or are you just summising?

[robjoenz]

Yes but Rob, The video referee can't rule on a forward pass!!!!! Not necessarily true about the last sentence either, as in football the coaches in a particular division, or at the G-8 summit which only involves big clubs making the calls and it is like Wigan, Saints, Leeds and Bradford making their concerns known and the RFL change them. But this is a lot more complex in football and as you know there are far more teams in football and a unified decision must be met by FIFA and UEFA for rule change, but as Union and League are in rugby rules can be different in the hemispheres, whereas it needs to be one set of rules for both.

Why do you think that internationally we suffer. We go into these games playing a set of rules from a kiwi ref that we don't understand and the Aussies smash us. Fine lines such as momentum etc are the finer lines which can be reduced to improve referee performance.

I agree with regards to playing different sets of rules. It is confusing but the RFL are under pressure from SL clubs and coaches to play the game the way they want it played, e.g. we rely on quick play the balls, the Aussies don't. NRL officials are under pressure from their clubs and coaches to officiate how they want. There is then the International set of interpretations (e.g. no quick taps, all controlled restarts).

Referees can pre-plan games by learning to realise who are the hot-heads to keep an eye on. In a derby match and let's face it IMO the biggest one, don't resort to rash decisions. Mcclorum's tackle was high yes but the saints player was slipping down as the momentum of the arm carried through.

I am not condoning the tackle, i am merely pointing out Klein should have taken the intensity of the situation (especially in the first ten minutes of a derby) to at least sin bin or put on report. The decision ruined the contest and while not as blatantly as Millenium Magic decisions by referee are affecting games, but in different ways, like sinbinning and mounting penalty counts.

Referees are aware of players who may cause them issues in a game, they've refereed these players before. I agree Wigan -v- Saints is a massive derby and that's why a strong referee was appointed to it.

The intensity of the game was great but that doesn't give any player permission to overstep the line of fair and foul. The timing of the incident doesn't come in to it either, if it warrants a red card in Wigan versus Whitehaven in the 70th minute, it warrants a red card in the 6th minute of Wigan versus Saints, for example.

The referee may have affected the outcome of the game, however, the key difference in this instance compared to Millennium Mayhem last year is that the officials got it right this time.

If McIllorum hadn't swung a high tackle in we wouldn't be discussing this now!

I have noticed (Wigan fault as well) that we have many penalties given away against us this season. I am well aware we are not performing that well, but it does seem apparent that there is a distinct count against us and the finer lines are given more against us.

You could say the other sides get away with cheating more discretely, or is this just "oh this is Wigan, they won loads in the past, about time another team had the rub of the green". I am not saying this is the case, but I have heard you mention in the past that referees often even the penalty count out, throughout the game. This is not that apparent at all in SL games I have seen.

Sides with poorer discipline give away more penalties. Sides like Saints and Leeds want quick play the balls and if the team tackling them don't dominate the tackle legally they sometimes try and slow it down beyond the rules, these type of things get penalised. Similarly, when sides are on the back foot they are tempted to not make the full 10 when going back in defence. Watch Saints in defence, they go back the 10, have time to turn around and then go. At worst they'll be marginally offside (e.g. fraction of a second too quick out of the blocks).

...I have heard you mention in the past that referees often even the penalty count out, throughout the game.

...by the way I have NEVER said this.

...you would need several more cameras for angles (for forward passes) and there wouldn't be time, but both touch judges should be consulted. Yes they are for a try, but i mean generally. If it is not forward the referee puts time back on and continues the count, after all with the penalty count the way it is at the moment, they certainly have the time for it now!

TJs call forward over the comms. system if they see a forward pass.

I am not sure about the tackle in the air rule, that is another thing I have debated with you in the past and people of the same team of the receiver, obstructing someone challenging and i believe if you are going for the ball, you should not be obstructed (as with any other tackle, that is not allowed!). I know if you rip it one on one it's allowed but if an extra man is blocking the oncoming challenger, it doesn't get deemed to be obstruction. What is the difference? That is obstruction!! Look at the definition in the dictionary and this is not black and white and life isn't no, but we can make life simpler, by simplifying these things can't we?

Every player has the right to be somewhere on the field. A player can stop still in someones path but he cannot change his path to obstruct someone.

Now stop asking me multiple questions because I feel like DaveO disecting emails to reply in sections and I don't like that feeling!

[GGCSENSECT]

Quote -Rob
The problem is, the game as it is played now, pushes the boundary of the rules hence why video referees were brought in, for example. You look at the forward pass ruling, the rule merely states just must not propell it towards your opponents try line. It's always been like that but only in recent years become an issue of debate.

As for whether you play at a ball, there is an argument to make it like football, if it has hits you and goes into touch it's the oppositions ball. The counter argument is that wingers will kick against their opposition winger to win a scrum and another set.

Sorry Rob. the rule is not as quoted above. The OLD rule was that a ball is passed forward if it is propelled in a forward direction "Relative to the ground" This made the decision very simple and if it was in force today would make the use of video refs very eay because there are so many lines on the pitch. Fallowfield changed the rule to read "Relative to the player making the pass" and illustrated it by saying that a pass was not forward if the player making the pass could keep in front of the ball before it landed. (Stevo's momentum rule)
As to your second point about the player who last touched the ball being responsible for making it dead, I couldn't agree more. The biggest advantage would be that referees would not have to decide whether or not he intended to play at it and anything that gives referees no thinking to do can only be beneficial!! Football players develop the skill of playing a ball against an opponent and there's no reason why we shouldn't.[/list]

[mike binder]

rob why does the man up staırs send players off ıe mcculorum last week the whole ref system ıs a dasgrace and needs of re vamp cummıngs out young ref rob ın

Do you know that for a fact Mike or are you just summising?

rob ı can guarentee u that the fourth offıcal sents mculorum offf ı know some 1 who lıstens to the ref on a radıo hıs words were send hım off a dılebarete attack to the head ,the whole system stınks