Are we looking strong??

[ancientnloyal]

With 3 pre-season friendlies, and 3 wins (2 against decent opposition) do we look strong enough to be a top 3 team this year? Last season we started well, came unstuck against Hull FC away but we were there or there abouts for several rounds (leeds played 1 game more)


The crunch will come at Easter im hoping with the team we have got to be in third to realistically feel like we can beat a St Helens side for the first time competitively in years before a match.

For me, its looking good but its all about tactics and player selection now.

[OAMJSONA]

the 3 friendlies we have had have not proven anything

we will have to see how we do say over the first 6 games

one thing i would like to see is young sam tomkins onthe bench and to be brought on slowly

he looks as though he as the makings of a real good 1/2 back but needs introducing slowly

[Wigan_forever1985]

I think we had the squad for a few years to compete now but haven't. One thing i think Noble has brought is consistency of squad we aren't clearin out the entire squad every season which is good. I think Lenagan wasn't far wrong when he said it could take another few years to get up to consistant top but i feel we could pick up some silverware this season most prob CC. I think leeds will storm it this year they have a young eager squad and they been together for ages none of the pivots changed bar the addition of an extra number 9 something that will only make them a more potent threat.

Wigan have to believe they can beat stains. We have the team we need the belief i feel our team is better than stains i dont think on paper we match leeds but i truely believe we are able to match stains.

To be honest id trade both pieces of silverware just for a nil against stains in our head to head for this year.

[thomo]

We look strong - if we can get the forwards right to lay the play form to let the backs play - but I have been saying this for about 18 months and still feel we are lacking something in the pack - it still looks light to me.

Can our front rowers make the hard yards - is O'Carroll big enough, is Prescott fit enough or will he get injuries.

Still feel there is a lack of size in the back row - they are all fit, high energy workhorses - I did read that Hansen had put on 6kg but doesn't look it to me.

A platform needs to be laid and the go forward established - got to play rugby in the opposition half!!!

[DaveO]

I think we had the squad for a few years to compete now but haven't. One thing i think Noble has brought is consistency of squad we aren't clearin out the entire squad every season which is good.

But we are starting the season with a new half back combination once again and with a new player in a key position at 9 as well.

I would also say consistency is only of any use if it is delivering results. 2007 and 2008 served up some awful RL at times and we went backwards in 2008 compared to 2007.

If we have a repeat performance of 2008 this year we will have consistency all right but of the wrong sort.

I think Lenagan wasn't far wrong when he said it could take another few years to get up to consistant top but i feel we could pick up some silverware this season most prob CC.

I think it will take a couple of more years at least so I would agree with IL which means for me the answer to the questions posed in this thread are we strong enough is no.

For the future a lot depends on recruitment though. We still have a small number of players on "Mo" contracts so once they have gone I will be expecting IL to deliver a squad capable of competing with Leeds and Saints.

I also think we could have done better on the recruitment this year to get us going in that direction as it is.

We retained Phelps who occupies a quota spot and used the last quota spot on a winger in Roberts. Regardless of how good these players are in their respective positions I don't think either of them were essential signings for this season and we only signed Roberts because he came available a year early.

If we need a prop as others have suggested then both Phelps and Roberts wages must have surely been enough to get us a decent one (not Moore from Wakey!)?

To be honest id trade both pieces of silverware just for a nil against stains in our head to head for this year.

I want to be able to come away from games satisfied we played well even when we win. Last season we won games off the back of some far too unconvincing and boring RL with Barrett dragging us along far too often.

Dave

[shaunedwardsfanclub]

We are looking strong, but only in certain positions! When it comes to the crunch, I don't think our front row will be good enough. We simply don't make enough yards and as a cosequence the opposition's defensive line can nearly always set itself, under such circumstances the half-backs will once again appear to be inadequate.

It is obvious to me that Sam Tomkins will get a place on the bench on a regular basis and that Lulu will cover for Piggy. Where that leaves McIlorium I am not sure.

Hopefully, IL is planning for 2010 when we will recruit an experienced scrum half to play with Tomkins and a prop to lead our pack.

I think we will finish trophiless this year but the experience gained by our young squad members will bear fruit in a few years time.

[cpwigan]

Mr Scrooge deserves to be analysed and questions asked. The mentality of any club will do worrys me. Oxford and London and now Wigan. That suggests an individual who simply likes the limelight IMO.

I have never seen a Wigan Chairman / Owner take part in the official team photogaph. Not even Mo Lindsay or Dave Whelan would do that. Can you imagine you guys if Whelan had done that whilst owning the club? Wigan would have been under water.

The Leigh match. Why not let Hogan, a Leyther walk out with the Wigan team? Can you imagine Wigan getting to Wembley and Lennagan saying Peter I want you to lead the team out? Exactly.

I cannot believe some of the penny pinching taking place. Having discovered that the players suits would cost £200 each, it was decreed wear your Kooga training gear instead. Are we that hard up?

Why so reluctant to give money to the club he frequently tells us he loves? Buying the club is an investment. Should he sell it he will get his money back. A side issue is that he cannot offload his Quins shares and is there not a deadline for Lennagan to do so? However, if you truly love a club and are advancing in years then why on earth would you not create a real legacy. Jack Walker did. Even the likes of Wilkinson at Salford give more in terms of their wealth to their clubs IMO. REMEMBER You give more as a % of your wealth to this club than the owner does. You do not nor should you feel obliged like some working class Victorians in service.

I am fan. I love the club. If I had the same money that Lennagan has I would not hesitate to buy Kudos or Fitness First and the front would be a facade of Central Park. Imagine what such a space could be used for. What a legacy. I would be asking the council could a club shop not be built onto Robin Park Arena or even on open space near the stadium.

Part of the reason our club is not only an historical club of note like a Hunslet or Huddersfield is because repeatedly over the century Wigan RLFC has pushed the boundaries and advanced the game. People talk about imports. This club welcomed Harry Sunderland, an Australian decades ago to move the club forward. Every period of success has been underpinned by visionary leadership. Interestingly, our lowest ebb came when we had a board of Mr Wigan's, Wigan Fans and they would not commit their own wealth either.

The crux is that Lennagan cannot fail. If he does and I mean this. What separates Wigan RLFC from every other club will be lost. You can only trade on your history for so long before the club itself becomes an historical relic like a Hunslet. We have had nearly a decade of limited success. If that continues much longer you will see the age profile of our fan base increase as young Wiganers opt to follow football. Trust me, that was what was happening when the gang of 4 took over in the 80's.

However, above all what matters is what happens on the pitch. Noble was desparate to sign Greg Bird. He even placed him in line ups regarding what his ideal team would look like. We were never at the races for Bird. How many times have we never been at the races in the last 12 months. Lindsay, if a coach wanted a player, he got him for them. Once Bailey's contract expires, is thereany legitimacy in the old excuse, we are paying the price for Whelan and Lindsay.

You want reality. The salary cap functions as follows if you want to be successful. You sign/develop a great 13-17. You then have no choice (forget the bull about all in good time) but to blood youngstyers. You have to because you want those youngsters to be able to contribute and play SL whilst on very poor early career contracts. That's what happened at Leeds and St Helens. You will never create a level wage structure. The best players command big contracts especially in a country like ours where there are so few great players and demand outstrips supply. As those stars age and the youngsters become quality first team players, you offload/release the ageing star, upgrade the new established players and start blooding a new era of cheap contracted youngsters. It is a continuous cycle. You can see it at Leeds and you can see it at Saints.

To hold back that cycle and that is what we do at Wigan under the woeful duty of care excuse creates problems. Problems that we currently face. Namely too many players wanting the same position and unable to gain experience / show their talent and declining players staying on too long. Some of those youngsters may leave and we will never know if they had it to be a great Wigan player. 12 months ago if I had come here and ran a poll Would you let Joel Tomkins go? 75%+ of you would have said yes, never a SL player in a million years.

Why have we not arranged season long loans for our youngsters? Andrew Thornley but apart from him? Rogues let me down the other day when he said ah but Leeds Academy finished in X position. It does not matter where the Academy and Reserves finish. Player Development is all that matters. Leeds would have loaned half a dozen + players out and pushed academy lads out into their reserves in 2008. We wasted a year of some players development in 2008. At the end of 2009 Scott Moore will have had 2 years of SL experience. He may be ready to replace Cunnigham for 2010. Tyrer and Smith will have had 1 and half seasons of SL by the end of 2009.

What will we do. Trot along to Orrell and clap as our lads batter ill matched opposition? Our reserves should be full of players still qualifying for the Academy. The academy should be full of school leaving first year recruits. Ainscough, Mossop should be in the same position as Scott Moore, as Tyrer as Smith by the end of 2009. Junior development in Wigan is not as wonderful as we like to think. I am hoping (and believe in him) that Ray Unsworth will revitalise the service area and scholarship schemes. Look at this weeks England U15 and U16 squads. Wigan is not the dominant club in any of those squads.

For the namby pamby who swallow the duty of care nonsense. look at Australia and the Toyota Cup. Great competition. The young lads stretch each other, they bash each other. It is like that from juniors upwards in Aus. Dog eat Dog. Aussie lads have to face huge Feka like Islanders in the juniors from mini/mod. They come good because they are tested, because they are pushed. None of thise well done British it is the taking part crap that counts. Do you think Edwards or Hanley wanted just to take part.

An aside? Why has Lennagan not invested his money in Orrell. Wigan today trained at the back of the JJB Soccerdome. Why no undersoil at Orrell? Why has the terracing not been replaced, the car park tarmacced? We could be playing friendlies v some teams there?

The fans forums are great for promises. Orrell,promises? Youngsters, promises? Succession a huge issue remember that at the first forum? Still a million milesaway and Noble is now in the final year of his contract. Like everybody else I dream about Edwards/Faz but is it reality? I would prefer Shaun to at least say unlikely/possible in 2010 rather than talk about our prospects. You want a bold move? Owen Farrell offer him a first team contract no stupid junior nonsense. He is that good. Great Wigan players are not two and a penny but if you get them they give you a decade + They become your core.

If Lennagan fails he will damage this great club, the greatest RL club in the world. Saints, Leeds cannot take that away from us. Lennagan can!

Investing in the playing side is why sport is not like other businesses. It is dead money in the sense you get no material return or at least the increased revenue will be lucky to match investment. The return is legacy, history, personal/community pride/enjoyment (not measurable by balance sheets) Sport will never be a pure business. It is dependent on philanthropy and if it strokes the egos of those philanthropists who cares as long as they deliver.

For what it is worth. I believe we have a decent squad. Comparable to any in SL. We will miss Trent. It would be foolish to pretend otherwise. Do we have the coach? I fear not. He understands the philosophy but with the ball in hand far too reliant on the players, no great detail or tactical plan. Exactly the same near the line and from scrums. The forward sets should be fantastic. Those yardage sets are the one you use for the largest % of the game. Noble has never changed his since he became a coach. Anderson created plans that made Saints players look better than they were. Noble makes our players look worse than they are. They flog their guts out unproductively match after match. You cannot play like that for a full season.

Look at Leigh, we defended like trojans. Putting points on the board. At least 20 down on other SL teams. V Huddersfield I think they outplayed us and even with a miracle try I am not sure we should have won as Richards try looked highly suspect IMO. Wire was a non event. I am sick of hearing we do not want to be playing our best RL next week onwards. Yes we want to peak for the Challenge Cup and Grand Final but if we can start a season well and not have to flog ourselves prior to the play offs it will be a huge achievement and make a gigantic difference. Dave O is the man with the stats but we did not improve in 2008 IMO

Do we have the owner? He has to be. He cannot fail. However, other than cheating he has got to do whatever it takes. The players give blood, the fans would, will our owner?

[cpwigan]

BTW I am going to try not to moan as much in 2009 but getting the above sermon off my chest was carthatic.

[GeoffN]

I agree with 90% of what you say; I'm less convinced about the value of a big-money, big-name overseas star. The success of Leeds & Saints has, IMO, been more due to their domestic players than their big name overseas players.

Saints success was built around Sculthorpe/Long/Cunningham/Wellens, not the likes of Lyon. With Leeds, it was Burrow/McGuire/Sinfield. Neither of them relied on a Barrett type superstar, as we tried and failed to do.

[ancientnloyal]

Good points cp, Ian seems reluctant to spend his money. As he said himself he wont bankroll the club. Why buy a club such as Wigan and then do nothing and be dependant on the club to pay for itself which is a long-term strategy?

I would love for us to have something in the town to show the world what we are about.