Why is playing the ball when the ref says "play-on" a penalty?

[Mike]

This penalty has been pivotal in both Quins and Cas matches this weekend. But I'm not sure why it is a penalty. Basically my argument is this:

1. A player goes down and no opposition player touches him.
2. The ref shouts "Play-on" (which is totally stupid - I'll get to that later).
3. The player either doesn't hear or is an idiot so he gets up, rools the ball backwards through his legs to a teammate who picks it up and plays on.
4. The ref then gives a penalty because the player played the ball - which is different as I understand it from a voluntary tackle.

It seems to me that the actions of the player in 3. are not illegal in any rules of the game (I wait to be corrected). There is no offside, knock on or obstruction. What I am saying is the player is "playing-on" - a little unusually admittedly, but I've seen players offload through their legs in the past - that was not penalised. How is the ref able to give that penalty.

Now the second thing. I find it amazing that out professional referees are still using the phrases "Play The Ball" and "Play On" to instruct players in this situation. Has noone thought that these two phrases are very similar indeed, and could easily be misheard in a noisy environment, or even shouted with the emphasis on the first word by an official hurrying to get into position. Not a problem if the outcome of the match is not affected much either way, but in this case it leads to a penalty decision if the player misunderstands the ref. Surely the refs should use two clearly distinguished phrases such as: "Play On" and "Tackle Complete", or whatever.

Whilst I'm on the subject, I'd also like some calirification of what the ref says when a tackle is complete. We have found out to our cost that merely shouting the number of the tackle does not indicate a tackle is complete, so perhaps a call of "Held" is requried. however on several occasions in contensious situations in this weekends games, the ref seems to not shout held, but only the number of the tackle. Would the player with the ball be in his rights to continue to try to make progress forwards in this situation?

Hopefuly a ref (robjoenz bascially ) can help me out with some answers here...

[turf]

It should be play on, simple as. He shouldn't shout "play on" and then change his mind, and give a penalty AGAINST the player just because his own team mate put a finger tip on him so he gets up and plays the ball.

Quins had Richard Silverwood. Cas had Ian Smith.

[robjoenz]

Playing the ball without being tackled is a voluntary tackle. This causes confusion for the defensive side who would think they needed to retreat the 10. As the player has not been tackled he will get a quick PTB and catch the defensive line on the backfoot. An unfair advantage hence a penalty.

A tackle's complete when the referee shouts the tackle number so he can't continue to play.

[Mike]

So how come the try was awarded against us last year after the ref had shouted the tackle number. The offical responce was that there was no mistake as the ref had not shouted Held.

Also, what do you think about clarifying the phrases referees shout to make the distinction between the tackled scenario and the play-on scenario more clear? Play it and Play on are not very distinct are they?

[robjoenz]

So how come the try was awarded against us last year after the ref had shouted the tackle number. The offical responce was that there was no mistake as the ref had not shouted Held.

When? Was it not surrender that was shouted? I'd be suprised if that was the official response if the tackle number was called.

Also, what do you think about clarifying the phrases referees shout to make the distinction between the tackled scenario and the play-on scenario more clear? Play it and Play on are not very distinct are they?

It makes sense, it's already in practise between match officials, e.g. TJs won't call play-on because it sounds like knock-on, they say okay instead. Look at how NRL police things though, they place the onus on the player to know the rules. Give no warning, just penalise. Does this lead to better knowledge of the game and better discipline?

[cpwigan]

One suggestion when a player is called held but thinks he is ok to play on and sometimes referee do this is that as long as the players has not carried on running for yards, he is stopped and asked to play the ball.

When a player voluntarily plays the ball I am not sure what you can do. Very occasionally you also get an instance where a player has been disorientated in a tackle and when he gets up to play the ball, he actually faces his own team and plays the ball towards the opposition. Again that results in a penalty IIRC but how you get around it not sure.

[MrDave]

I think a penalty for playing the ball when not tackled is a good rule. If players were allowed to play the ball when ever they wanted then the opposition players would never no if they were onside because if it was a real tackle they would have to retreat 10 metres.

I believe it is also a penalty against the ball carrier if the 'dummy' a play the ball because it can trick the opposition into moving up to early. On a similar note I've heard that deliberately holding up the ball in the scrum should be a penalty against the team in possession but I've seen a few teams getting away with it.

[robjoenz]

One suggestion when a player is called held but thinks he is ok to play on and sometimes referee do this is that as long as the players has not carried on running for yards, he is stopped and asked to play the ball.

I believe it is also a penalty against the ball carrier if the 'dummy' a play the ball because it can trick the opposition into moving up to early.

Both are a matter of common sense. If someone dummies the PTB then you have to accept that the defensive line may have moved a tad quick off the mark.

On a similar note I've heard that deliberately holding up the ball in the scrum should be a penalty against the team in possession but I've seen a few teams getting away with it

There's no offence against holding the ball in the scrum... as soon as it passes the 2nd rows legs it's out, however. So if the loose forward holds the ball up the scrum half can run around and get the ball.