The roll of the pack in modern RL

[weststand-rich]

One recent example where they did was during the cup I think when Kevin Brown took everyone by surprise by kicking on the first tackle straight from a scrum, If my memoy serves me correctly it resulted in, or very nearly resulted in a try.

Hi GP,

Wire did something very similar last year or the year previous when Lee Briers kicked from the base of a scrum cross field to Kevin Penny and he caught it on the hop to score a scorching try.

I think RL scrums still have some nominal value in the sense that they should tie up the forwards and open up back play somewhat. The examples above however do seem to be the exception because teams seem to often swop players around in the back line for defensive reasons. I think there would be some merit in defining who eactly can and can't form a scrum from the play sheet, so that if a scrum is formed with distinct positonal advantage, centres and second rows can't swop about.

Just a thought :eusa16:

[cpwigan]

Think of a modern RL team as

LW LC LSR LHB PROP PROP RHB RSR RC RW

With the Hooker moving around following the ball. The fullback and loose forward having more freedom to play anywhere right or left.

The formation CP describes here is correct for attack but tweaks around slightly in defensive structure. Last year, like most of the SL teams, we had the defense organised in 3 sliding blocks of 4 with the hooker slotting in the middle section. The stand off and scrum half usually slotted in next to the winger on each side of the field. The full back would then operate behind the line tracking the ball and predicted play.

Early on last year our main defensive liability came on the outside edge of the right hand channel where Tim Smith had the tackling presence of rice pudding.

Very true Rich and often it depends on the preference of the loose forward or the need of the team. Again, totally agree, the half backs drift out on defence and either go to L2/R2 or L3/R3. Something for fans to ponder. It became a trend to push half backs as wide as possible so they were defending L2/R2 (the natural centre position) on the basis they had less defence to complete and were supposedly less easy to target. However, L1/R1 and L2/R2 are often very isolated in defence and have to make 1 v 1 decisions / tackles and can be badly exposed as we saw with Tiom Smith / the 4 Nations v Aus (although that involved several defenders). If you move halfbacks closer into say L3 or R3 they sometimes have to tackle more but get more assistance from say the loos forward or second row inside them.

Defending out wide requires real judgement / decision making. He has not hit his straps in attack but Gleeson has shown the ability to do that in defence.

[weststand-rich]

I'd agree here RE Gleeson. What he did seem to add when he came was steel and intelligence (I use that word limited only to the sphere of rugby!) to the outside defence. Given the poor start we had last year that was enough to give us a platform to build on for the rest of the year. I'd be interetsed to see if attack improves here next year??

TL also seems to have that ability to read outside defense well, although if I had my way I'd keep from shooting out of the line just a little bit. When he does it well, he can cripple players well above his weight (think Fasavalu at Knowsley road, sorry XYZ stadium) ,but he can leave vulnerable gaps.

[cpwigan]

I think the problem with Tommy is just that Rich. To put on those big hits you often have to pre guess the play and leave the line which when it comes off is great but you can look a right Charlie also. Just making an effective tackle is far better IMO. Line discipline, everyone in unison / communicating and line speed are the keys for me.

Never made my mind up if Wigan should be an up and in defence or a compressed sliding defence.

[georgeorwell]

My thanks to all you guys. You obviously know your stuff and it's fascinating to read your comments........and very helpful. cp is making me work hard - quite right too - to puzzle out his abbreviations; I'm a newcomer remember!!

[cpwigan]

George

LW - left wing
LC - left centre
LSR - left second row
LHB left half back normally Tommy at Wigan
PROP
PROP
RHB right half back Trent then Sam at Wigan
RSR right second row
RC right centre
RW right wing

You would be amazed how the players talk in even more their own language with coloured zones as you move from your try line to the opposition try line and working across the pitch they talk in tens. I they run inside a defender they are running an unders line and if they run on the outside of a defender they are running an overs line.

[georgeorwell]

Top man cp; thanks a lot.

[Kittwazzer]

Top man cp; thanks a lot.

I have to echo that comment. You have condensed the entire RL Handbook into a few posts. Well done!!

Staying with the hooker, things have changed greatly since I first started watching the game.

In those days, the scrums were a hard fought affair. Big props were a big advantage, but a good hooker knew exactly when to drop his arse and stick his leg out!

You mentioned Nikki Kiss as being the last striking hooker. Nikki coaches in NWC and we have had many chats over the years. I have pointed out that he won more ball from the tackle than he ever won from the scrum and he does not argue that fact!

Nikki was the best ball stealer I have ever seen. In fact, his ball stealing brought about a change in the rules. Then the rules changed back so that ball stealing is OK in a one-on-one. Nikki would have a field day today!

Getting back to the striking hooker. I still reckon the best one I ever saw was a lad called Ray Martland. Never made it beyond the A Team. His best run came during the strike!

[cpwigan]

Nicky was sublime at stealing the ball in the tackle. Best I Have see. Gary Connolly and perhaps Gavin Clinch are the best I have seen since. At one stage Nicky looked like he was heading up the pro coaching ranks but slipped off the radar. Brian Case similarly so. Great character.

[exile in Tiger country]

Following on from this learning thread, can someone explain to me the difference in roles between scrum half and half back?