SL is simply too big !!
SL is simply too big !!
We can keep kidding ourselves but we do not have enough players nor enough club with the financial means to run so many genuine SL clubs. After a handful of weeks, injuries etc and the majority of clubs become passengers unable to compete at an elite level.
Re: SL is simply too big !!
I see your point CP but IMO making it smaller is not the solution, we need to look at selling the game better and look at how the teams can be funded better.
Maybe a better TV deal would help but we need to sell the International game better, a solution not many people will like but worth a shot is to steal some of the top brass from the Union marketing side after all 15-20 years ago they started with nothing and now look at them!
More incentives on the cap are needed because no matter how you look at it when we buy Aussie imports they need to be good whilst at the same time we need to show off our youth!
Im not sure of the answers but making the product smaller will only hurt us in the long run all the grass roots being laid down would have less clubs to go to we would have less fans because lets face it castleford fans (for example if they where gone) would not jump ship to wakey or hudds they would just stop going to games and stop watching which would mean sky figures going down which would mean less money to the less clubs which would mean less wages less production less spendature which would mean less facilities less pitch maintenance less sports science etc etc etc etc.
I suppose what Im saying is less teams means less of everything and thats not good for Rugby League!
Maybe a better TV deal would help but we need to sell the International game better, a solution not many people will like but worth a shot is to steal some of the top brass from the Union marketing side after all 15-20 years ago they started with nothing and now look at them!
More incentives on the cap are needed because no matter how you look at it when we buy Aussie imports they need to be good whilst at the same time we need to show off our youth!
Im not sure of the answers but making the product smaller will only hurt us in the long run all the grass roots being laid down would have less clubs to go to we would have less fans because lets face it castleford fans (for example if they where gone) would not jump ship to wakey or hudds they would just stop going to games and stop watching which would mean sky figures going down which would mean less money to the less clubs which would mean less wages less production less spendature which would mean less facilities less pitch maintenance less sports science etc etc etc etc.
I suppose what Im saying is less teams means less of everything and thats not good for Rugby League!
-
shaunedwardsfanclub
- Posts: 6338
- Joined: Thu Jul 03, 2008 2:08 pm
Re: SL is simply too big !!
I am with you CP, fans want to see quality not quantity. There are far too few quality players around to support 14/15 SL teams. The likes of Wakefield and Castleford need to merge if we are to develop the game both from a financial and playing perspective. Cumbria need a team. Clubs need to develop a greater number of juniors and the RFL need to set-up structures that will result in such an outcome. The likes of Quins and Crusaders need to be protected from other teams poaching their players otherwise they simply become a production line for the top teams. I have said it before and I will say it again, how can we compete with the Aussies when, for example, Rugby League is taught as a compulsory subject in schools, or clubs such as the Penrith Panthers have in excess of 6,000 juniors on their books.cpwigan wrote:We can keep kidding ourselves but we do not have enough players nor enough club with the financial means to run so many genuine SL clubs. After a handful of weeks, injuries etc and the majority of clubs become passengers unable to compete at an elite level.
We need to attract larger sponsoship an that can only be acheived if we create a national sport.
Winning is down to 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration - Shaun Edwards
Re: SL is simply too big !!
But going smaller isnt going to help the situation your talking of grass roots here and in another post you mentioned the talent we have coming through the ages well sorry but if you cut the teams where are all of these kids going to play, simple answer is there not!
we need to expand the game from the bottom up, Wigan Stains and Leeds have grassroot systems to be envied and the quins have an excellent grassroots system in place, crusaders are implementing one, other clubs need to copy their lead. Grassroots, youth call it what you will is an investment its long term stuff quins for example are seeing their fruits beared after approx 8yrs of nurturing but should now have a consistent pool to choose from.
If all these clubs set them up then we will have a greater talent pool for internationals which in turn enables us to sell the game better, which in turn generates more tv interest which would command more ££££ to be split amongst the clubs!
The game needs better marketing because the product is excellent.
Your idea of teams merging is a shallow short term one, look at stains average crowds this year compared to last year and how much further is the distance. (Last year avg 10500 and this year avg 7500) Also bear in mind if you where to merge Wakey and Cas you have just sacked 25 players and the 25 remaining still wouldnt be a top 4 club.
Shrinking the game will only force the opposite of the above and that will mean a small game for the small die hard fans with less money compared to the NRL which will mean a larger gap between Eng/GB in comparison to Aus and NZ!
The franchise system has bareley had time to kick in but once it has teams will have to have 9 or 10 of the points ticked to stay in SL which will only help my above points.
we need to expand the game from the bottom up, Wigan Stains and Leeds have grassroot systems to be envied and the quins have an excellent grassroots system in place, crusaders are implementing one, other clubs need to copy their lead. Grassroots, youth call it what you will is an investment its long term stuff quins for example are seeing their fruits beared after approx 8yrs of nurturing but should now have a consistent pool to choose from.
If all these clubs set them up then we will have a greater talent pool for internationals which in turn enables us to sell the game better, which in turn generates more tv interest which would command more ££££ to be split amongst the clubs!
The game needs better marketing because the product is excellent.
Your idea of teams merging is a shallow short term one, look at stains average crowds this year compared to last year and how much further is the distance. (Last year avg 10500 and this year avg 7500) Also bear in mind if you where to merge Wakey and Cas you have just sacked 25 players and the 25 remaining still wouldnt be a top 4 club.
Shrinking the game will only force the opposite of the above and that will mean a small game for the small die hard fans with less money compared to the NRL which will mean a larger gap between Eng/GB in comparison to Aus and NZ!
The franchise system has bareley had time to kick in but once it has teams will have to have 9 or 10 of the points ticked to stay in SL which will only help my above points.
Re: SL is simply too big !!
Agree totally. The merger of Wakey and Cas is the only way Wakey are going to survive.We are often accused in Rugby League of being insular with RL staying in the comfort zone of the north.Rugby League needs to broaden it's field.That in itself begs the question.How?Especially with the muppets that govern the game lacking vision.The game needs to see a reduction of teams even if it is accused of being for those that can afford to buy the best players that the salary cap allows.The cap as it is is far to restrictive.It needs to be raised substantially.If not then we will be restricted to the Aussie imports at the back end of a career.If we want to be seen as the best game in the world then we must have the best players on parade for the whole world to see.shaunedwardsfanclub wrote:I am with you CP, fans want to see quality not quantity. There are far too few quality players around to support 14/15 SL teams. The likes of Wakefield and Castleford need to merge if we are to develop the game both from a financial and playing perspective. Cumbria need a team. Clubs need to develop a greater number of juniors and the RFL need to set-up structures that will result in such an outcome. The likes of Quins and Crusaders need to be protected from other teams poaching their players otherwise they simply become a production line for the top teams. I have said it before and I will say it again, how can we compete with the Aussies when, for example, Rugby League is taught as a compulsory subject in schools, or clubs such as the Penrith Panthers have in excess of 6,000 juniors on their books.cpwigan wrote:We can keep kidding ourselves but we do not have enough players nor enough club with the financial means to run so many genuine SL clubs. After a handful of weeks, injuries etc and the majority of clubs become passengers unable to compete at an elite level.
We need to attract larger sponsoship an that can only be acheived if we create a national sport.
Re: SL is simply too big !!
My view is that the way RL is structured professionally currently it is almost SL or nothing. SL is diluted by clubs who have insufficient finances, playing talent etc etc. Such clubs make it impossible to raise standards be it financially or playing and create a domestic competition that does not produce RL of an intensity/standard week in week out to breed an intenational team to compete v Aus/NZ and give the game the nationwide marketing it needs to generate more financial investment etc.
If the 2nd tier below SL was full of genuine healthy traditional RL clubs and developing geographical ones we would have a level below SL that was good enough not to need to fast track expansion clubs far too hastily.
If the 2nd tier below SL was full of genuine healthy traditional RL clubs and developing geographical ones we would have a level below SL that was good enough not to need to fast track expansion clubs far too hastily.
Re: SL is simply too big !!
HUll KR have just been given 1million investment from an egyptian investor/businessman, I hope they use this money wisely, its a great opportunity to market themselves well and enhance youth development!
CP your latter post has changed slightly from making the game smaller your point is not so different to mine using the clubs below as feeders so to speak but each club still needs their own youth development systems in place, the number of clubs in Super League now is good however the grass roots/youth development needs to catch up not the other way round, more talent to choose with more clubs to play for will give us more talent internationally, also more youth development will strengthen the league below.
The reason the Ausies and Kiwis are so good is because their youth development is so good! If we lost someone like K. Hunt or Falou or SBW to name but a few we would be gutted the NRL didnt flinch they just said theirs more where they come from and how right where they!
If we make Super League smaller the talent pool will be smaller International gap will become greater, I keep banging on about 2 things but its true we need better marketing and better/more youth development!
Wakey have the chance to survive and revive under new ownership joining with Cas is the last thing they need and the last thing SL needs! They need to show what structures they can put in place to safeguard them as a team and to progress!
People can be too quick to make short term decisions, we need to look to the long term for our beloved game!
CP your latter post has changed slightly from making the game smaller your point is not so different to mine using the clubs below as feeders so to speak but each club still needs their own youth development systems in place, the number of clubs in Super League now is good however the grass roots/youth development needs to catch up not the other way round, more talent to choose with more clubs to play for will give us more talent internationally, also more youth development will strengthen the league below.
The reason the Ausies and Kiwis are so good is because their youth development is so good! If we lost someone like K. Hunt or Falou or SBW to name but a few we would be gutted the NRL didnt flinch they just said theirs more where they come from and how right where they!
If we make Super League smaller the talent pool will be smaller International gap will become greater, I keep banging on about 2 things but its true we need better marketing and better/more youth development!
Wakey have the chance to survive and revive under new ownership joining with Cas is the last thing they need and the last thing SL needs! They need to show what structures they can put in place to safeguard them as a team and to progress!
People can be too quick to make short term decisions, we need to look to the long term for our beloved game!
Re: SL is simply too big !!
Will the talent pool be any smaller Wes?
I ask this question, if the NRL struggles to maintain standards with its playing pool then what gives us the right to assume we can run a similar sized competition?
NZ competes without a donmestic competition providing its playing pool.
My take is if we reduce the size of the elite UK competition we enhance the intensity of the matches / competition which widens rather than reduces the international standard player pool. A small intense elite competition also gives us an advantage of the NRL until the NRL moves to 2 tiers which IMO it will eventually.
I ask this question, if the NRL struggles to maintain standards with its playing pool then what gives us the right to assume we can run a similar sized competition?
NZ competes without a donmestic competition providing its playing pool.
My take is if we reduce the size of the elite UK competition we enhance the intensity of the matches / competition which widens rather than reduces the international standard player pool. A small intense elite competition also gives us an advantage of the NRL until the NRL moves to 2 tiers which IMO it will eventually.
Re: SL is simply too big !!
YES! Every team currently has a youth system in place so to say the talent pool will be the same is ludicrous if you cut say 2 teams for example who would maintain their youth systems, no one! With less teams to play for you will have less youth development numbers will go down not up, if our game shrinks we will be taking a backward step, almost admitting our game can not grow (IMO Pathetic)! If you where to drop Wakefield and Cas for example how many players has the game immediately lost? Bearing in mind you have SL team 20's team 18's and 16's roughly 25 per squad, wow that would be 200 players where do they all go???
The Kiwis do so well because they are are intwined in the NRL, the french are getting better IMO because they are in SL, NZ Warriors have a massive youth system also they have an advantage, Rugby League to them is like football to us. What is the average age of the Kiwis team?
I dont think the NRL does struggle to maintain standards as such, they are in a similar position to us the lesser clubs have lesser facilities with lesser youth development, money needs to be spent from the ground up for a good long term investment in talent! Simple as that, Wigan have the best team we have had in a long time and look at the structures and youth in place is this a coincidence, No IL knows what he is doing. Clubs need to follow the lead and I hope they do!
Intensity of matches I see your point to an extent but look at other team sports, Football, Rugby Union, Cricket, Basketball, Baseball, Hockey, Ice Hockey, American Football etc etc etc their isnt a league out their to my mind which doesnt have weaker teams, or to put it your way name a league where every game is massively intense?!?!?!?
It doesnt happen and why does it not happen? IMO because teams want instant success instead of investing in youth development an facilites.
Even in a dream world where every team is equal in terms of player quality, teams will fatigue at different times injuries will occur at different times and sorry to pop your bubble but this would mean the intensity will drop for just as many games then as it does now.
In many respect IL was a lucky man because he inherited a good youth system and facilities and he has only had to tweak thing but the direction he is pushing Wigan is a good one other clubs need to do the same or similar wether that take them 3 yrs or closer to 10, that is what will improve our game!
The Kiwis do so well because they are are intwined in the NRL, the french are getting better IMO because they are in SL, NZ Warriors have a massive youth system also they have an advantage, Rugby League to them is like football to us. What is the average age of the Kiwis team?
I dont think the NRL does struggle to maintain standards as such, they are in a similar position to us the lesser clubs have lesser facilities with lesser youth development, money needs to be spent from the ground up for a good long term investment in talent! Simple as that, Wigan have the best team we have had in a long time and look at the structures and youth in place is this a coincidence, No IL knows what he is doing. Clubs need to follow the lead and I hope they do!
Intensity of matches I see your point to an extent but look at other team sports, Football, Rugby Union, Cricket, Basketball, Baseball, Hockey, Ice Hockey, American Football etc etc etc their isnt a league out their to my mind which doesnt have weaker teams, or to put it your way name a league where every game is massively intense?!?!?!?
It doesnt happen and why does it not happen? IMO because teams want instant success instead of investing in youth development an facilites.
Even in a dream world where every team is equal in terms of player quality, teams will fatigue at different times injuries will occur at different times and sorry to pop your bubble but this would mean the intensity will drop for just as many games then as it does now.
In many respect IL was a lucky man because he inherited a good youth system and facilities and he has only had to tweak thing but the direction he is pushing Wigan is a good one other clubs need to do the same or similar wether that take them 3 yrs or closer to 10, that is what will improve our game!
Re: SL is simply too big !!
Until we move away from the notion development has to be fronted by an elite club we will never progress. Union, even football develop on the basis of national projection of their sport. Youngsters want to play / support those sports based on national projection of the sport in its entirety where RL does not have that which is a poor way to develop any sport.
The playing pool will not be any smaller Wes. SL may have X teams but that does not equate to X x 25 players each = International quality. Far from it. How many players are international quality now. Reduce/intensify domestically and the number of players of international quality increases, not decreses.
A proper Championship 2nd tier does not stop junior development. Indeed, one could argue amateur clubs are more important in terms of player development. Has Widnes being in the Championship reduced / increased their junior player development?
The playing pool will not be any smaller Wes. SL may have X teams but that does not equate to X x 25 players each = International quality. Far from it. How many players are international quality now. Reduce/intensify domestically and the number of players of international quality increases, not decreses.
A proper Championship 2nd tier does not stop junior development. Indeed, one could argue amateur clubs are more important in terms of player development. Has Widnes being in the Championship reduced / increased their junior player development?