Except, to continue your silly example, Darren Lockyer isn't readily available so a club couldn't bring him in to cover whilst Cardiss takes his paracetamol for a couple of weeks. The scope for abuse is limited because there aren't a mass of players available for this kind of situation. We were lucky last year in that Gary Connolly became available during the season so we could bring in cover after Pongia announced his retirement, and it looks like Michael Smith may become available soon if he doesn't sort out his problems at St Helens, but that might not always be the case.primrose-n-blue posted:
Some good posts from you PIES, and all of you argued a good case.
I'm aware of his opposition against the current structure and has indeed brought about a more relaxation in it.
BUT bringing in players just because of an injury to FAZ and then releasing them again, no way jose!
He ain't spoke about that close season.
Can't you see what would happen?
Every club would be bringing in every TOM, DICK & HARRY every time there is an injury or so called injury(phantom).
Lets look at it even more extreme point of view.
For eg.
Daryl Cardiss has a cold, a player we wont miss after last seasons poor form, lets get Darren lockyer!
Wingin Wigan Maurice!
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
http://fraggle.fotopic.net
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
-
primrose-n-blue
- Posts: 763
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:23 am
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
Fraggle you disappoint me.Fraggle posted:
Except, to continue your silly example, Darren Lockyer isn't readily available so a club couldn't bring him in to cover whilst Cardiss takes his paracetamol for a couple of weeks. The scope for abuse is limited because there aren't a mass of players available for this kind of situation.
There isn't anything silly about my remarks!
I admitted they my be to relms of extremity but not to the point couldn't happen.
Think about this senario then....
quaterfinal (CC) Wigan v Leeds Farrell is out... Maurice could say "Mason is coming as replacement"
They pay Bulldog's for his services for one game lets say £30,000.
As extreme my senario is...it still fits with what Maurice is asking.
It's practicly giving teams the power to hire players or teams, to go one step further, on mini contracts.
It hasn't anything to do with the availability of players Fraggle...
It about what I said about Wigan right a the start of this thread.......
"Spending power"...money, not avaiability of players!
Offer enough and you can sign anybody.
Maurice wants to use it whenever he needs too, to restore Wigan's one team domanance once again!
Everytime somebody is injured, Mo will just go and sign another with big money one or two game hits.
As things stand at the moment, players can only be signed on loan in blocks of one month and teams arn't so forthgiving about releasing players for this long.
To hire players for a months loan is also very costly and stems the use of this activity!
The structure that is in place now has closed the gap between clubs, so it has to be good for the sport.
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Hedonic calculator
- Posts: 2
- Joined: Mon Oct 25, 2004 5:20 pm
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
The point is not valid. The Challenge Cup has rules to stop teams from hiring players just to play in the cup on this basis. I remember a player having to sit out challenge cup matches years ago because the club had signed him after the deadline. Can't remember who the player was though. I think it was early/mid eighties.
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
I was being kind, you said the example was "stupid" when you made it first time round!primrose-n-blue posted:
Fraggle you disappoint me.
There isn't anything silly about my remarks!
I admitted they my be to relms of extremity but not to the point couldn't happen.
Maybe I'm being naive but I wasn't expecting Chairman Mo to hire players on a one or two game basis as you say. It would have to be a proper loan deal or for free-agent players which is pretty much the situation now. Whilst it might be nice to see the likes of Mason in a Wigan shirt (Willie, not that useless dirty lump at Stains), his own club would probably not be prepared to release him for one or two matches. He'd be under contract, and I've no idea what issues there might be in terms of his club's insurance for a player playing for another club in case of injury. Even for £30k or £50k, I doubt clubs would be willing to risk their prize assets, particularly when they are also taking part in competitive matches themselves. The players themselves wouldn't be able to just slot into a team, and particularly travelling from overseas would be jetlagged part of the time.Think about this senario then....
quaterfinal (CC) Wigan v Leeds Farrell is out... Maurice could say "Mason is coming as replacement"
They pay Bulldog's for his services for one game lets say £30,000.
As extreme my senario is...it still fits with what Maurice is asking.
It's practicly giving teams the power to hire players or teams, to go one step further, on mini contracts.
It hasn't anything to do with the availability of players Fraggle...
It about what I said about Wigan right a the start of this thread.......
"Spending power"...money, not avaiability of players!
Offer enough and you can sign anybody.
Maurice wants to use it whenever he needs too, to restore Wigan's one team domanance once again!
Everytime somebody is injured, Mo will just go and sign another with big money one or two game hits.
As things stand at the moment, players can only be signed on loan in blocks of one month and teams arn't so forthgiving about releasing players for this long.
To hire players for a months loan is also very costly and stems the use of this activity!
The structure that is in place now has closed the gap between clubs, so it has to be good for the sport.
I think you're reading too much in Maurice's comments. There *are* players out there who are unattached from time-to-time. Mike Smith looks set to be released, he had a good rep at Castleford. Quentin Pongia was a proven international who was wasting time in France looking for a club. Brad Davies also returned to the UK from France, whilst we also picked up Nick Graham who was unwanted by his club. Not necessarily superstars such as Lockyer or Mason, but big names nonetheless but most importantly they were all available via means that any other club could make use of. The problem is that the 20/20 rule means clubs can't pick up these available players without sacrificing someone else, but I still don't see why it's a problem to bring in an available player to cover for a long-term injury?
The 20/20 rule makes things look messy, people accuse of us of cheating by releasing injured players to bring in new ones under that rule, but if that was scrapped but the salary cap was still enforced the overall effect is no different - a player is injured and a replacement is brought in but without the farce of having to manipulate the 20/20 rule.
http://fraggle.fotopic.net
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
There are actually several clubs who have trouble with the laws of SL. Halifax and Saints were fined for breaking the salary cap a couple years back. Cunnigham, Senior and now Hudson have been caught taking banned substances. Leeds and Castleford were both complaining that the salary cap was too high last season and ought be lowered. Several clubs abuse the use of British and South Sea Islands passport players. Then there was the case of Saints fielding a weakened side against the Bulls. So I fail to see how it's just Lindsay that has problems with the rules.
The problem with SL is the massive gap in marketability between clubs. If the likes of London, Hudderfield and Castleford had the same fan base and resources as the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Bradford there would be no salary cap as each club would be able to attract and afford the players they wanted without going bust. The salary cap stangles the businesses of the larger clubs in order to give the lesser clubs a chance, this is necessary to give a competitive league. It also must be extremely frustrating for the clubs that have so much lost potential because of this strangle hold.
Is it any wonder that Maurice is making comments in the press when Wigan have the problems, he is Wigan's chairman. I could understand your upset if he was making suggestions for other clubs which are not his business but I would have thought it quite acceptable for him to voice his opinions and concerns for the club he runs.
My personal opinion is that Lindsay hasn't strengthened the squad in enough depth. I also feel there must be a large salary range, we have 23 first team players and I can't see 20 being paid more than £20k.
I also think that we took quite a big risk in signing three injured players and Moran who needed an operation. Seuseu has proved himself over the years but I feel Vaeliki and Davico have a lot more to prove, and they all need to prove they can be fit. Going into SL-X with just three first choice props is rediculous, this gives virtually no room for rotation or to deal with injuries. Can't help but think we're in for another frustrating start and mediocre final placing!
The problem with SL is the massive gap in marketability between clubs. If the likes of London, Hudderfield and Castleford had the same fan base and resources as the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Bradford there would be no salary cap as each club would be able to attract and afford the players they wanted without going bust. The salary cap stangles the businesses of the larger clubs in order to give the lesser clubs a chance, this is necessary to give a competitive league. It also must be extremely frustrating for the clubs that have so much lost potential because of this strangle hold.
Is it any wonder that Maurice is making comments in the press when Wigan have the problems, he is Wigan's chairman. I could understand your upset if he was making suggestions for other clubs which are not his business but I would have thought it quite acceptable for him to voice his opinions and concerns for the club he runs.
My personal opinion is that Lindsay hasn't strengthened the squad in enough depth. I also feel there must be a large salary range, we have 23 first team players and I can't see 20 being paid more than £20k.
I also think that we took quite a big risk in signing three injured players and Moran who needed an operation. Seuseu has proved himself over the years but I feel Vaeliki and Davico have a lot more to prove, and they all need to prove they can be fit. Going into SL-X with just three first choice props is rediculous, this gives virtually no room for rotation or to deal with injuries. Can't help but think we're in for another frustrating start and mediocre final placing!
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primrose-n-blue
- Posts: 763
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:23 am
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
....and here it is from the horse's mouth exactly what I told you...
[quote league express 14/2/05]
"I remember when Adrian Shelford and Kevin iro were required for a New Zealand tour of this country and France. We were able to bring in on short term contract players of similar class like Davidson and Blake."
I told you that he wants to bring in top players on big short contracts, but not because of international duty as he tries to make the coralition with but in reality he wants to do it under the mantle of injuries!
And just for the boot Les Davidson and Phil Blake just happened to be the best second rower and back in the game at that time!!
So he is actually buying a better team for "hit" games as I said earlier.
Where can you draw a guide line at who you can bring in for who is injured?..
Exactly, you can't!!
eg
'One of your second rower fringe players has been reported that he has a back problem, nobody can prove otherwise with this condition so Wigan replace him with Mason' There isn't a grading of players abilities in place, so why not?
'Just so happens that this phantom back injury occurs at a difficult run in the Wigan fixtures.'
'But that is just by chance of-course.'
GET REAL EGG HEAD LYNDSEY..HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK THE RUGBY LEAGUE SUPPORTER IS?
[quote league express 14/2/05]
"I remember when Adrian Shelford and Kevin iro were required for a New Zealand tour of this country and France. We were able to bring in on short term contract players of similar class like Davidson and Blake."
I told you that he wants to bring in top players on big short contracts, but not because of international duty as he tries to make the coralition with but in reality he wants to do it under the mantle of injuries!
And just for the boot Les Davidson and Phil Blake just happened to be the best second rower and back in the game at that time!!
So he is actually buying a better team for "hit" games as I said earlier.
Where can you draw a guide line at who you can bring in for who is injured?..
Exactly, you can't!!
eg
'One of your second rower fringe players has been reported that he has a back problem, nobody can prove otherwise with this condition so Wigan replace him with Mason' There isn't a grading of players abilities in place, so why not?
'Just so happens that this phantom back injury occurs at a difficult run in the Wigan fixtures.'
'But that is just by chance of-course.'
GET REAL EGG HEAD LYNDSEY..HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK THE RUGBY LEAGUE SUPPORTER IS?
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
P'n'B, I've not read the article in question, but there's nothing in what you've written to give any evidence that Chairman Mo intends to do what he was able to do in the past. You still haven't told us how you expect him to bring in these players on short-term contracts without their own clubs demanding a small fortune to release the players. Just because things were done 10 years ago doesn't mean they can still be done now. Would you lot be prepared to release Briers to us for 6 weeks if Danny Orr got injured? Somehow I doubt it. Even if we paid you £500k for the privilege, you'd then have to replace Briers yourselves for the interim period so where's the benefit to you, except for a short-term cash injection. And Wigan would have to be really desperate to pay big money when we can promote a kid instead.primrose-n-blue posted:
A lot of things that were said much earlier in the thread and which they're now trying to back up using quotes about events that happened an eternity ago when the sport was played in winter and Wigan were the only professional club (except Leeds) but without a shred of evidence that Lindsey intends to hire players short-time now.
If this bringing in top players for short-term deals could be done now, we'd have done it last year when we were down to one fit "prop" forward (Farrell). We didn't. I wonder why?
http://fraggle.fotopic.net
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
"You rescue me, you are my faith, my hope, my liberty.
And when there's darkness all around, you shine bright for me, you are a guiding light to me....
You are a Tower of Strength to me" - Wayne Hussey, The Mission.
Shepherd's Bush Empire - 27/Feb/08 - 1/Mar/08
[hr]
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
P'n'B let's be realistic here - if the Wolves had the chance to sign Lockyer, Mason or Fitler, but couldn't because of the Salary cap or 20/20 would you say "well, fair's fair, we have to stick to the rules"? Of course you wouldn't, you would be bitterly disappointed at missing out on the opportunity to bring talent to your club and would argue passionately for any and all offending rules to be changed.
Non Wigan fans have never forgiven Wigan for their success in the 80s/90s and every time we complain about something we are labeled as cheats and as wanting a one-sided competition - "like it used to be". When in fact all we want is the best chance possible of our club winning the league - the same as any fan.
As much as it pains me to admit it, since Super League started our trophy count is not exactly staggering, we've done OK, however we are some way below our former level of success - not surprisingly, Wigan fans are disappointed about this. The salary cap and 20/20 rule have contributed to our problems (along with injuries and a couple of questionable signings) as we've had to release players that we would have otherwise kept - namely Briscoe and Robinson, who in Briscoe's case have gone to other clubs and done very well. As a fan this is VERY frustrating.
By arguing against the salary cap and the player swap issue that you seem so dead against, Maurice is merely trying to do the best for the club - something that he is employed to do. We are not the only people that have complained against the 20/20, Bradford have, as well as stains and I am pretty sure Leeds have too at some point.
After being found guilty of cheating Sean Long was banned - something he took without much complaint. However as soon as his ban was up he went on and on about how unfairly he had been treated - I don't see anyone from anywhere but Wigan bringing him to task for this. Also stains have fielded weak (which is an understatement) teams in matches prior to the CC final - again no-one except Wigan seem to bring this up. Several Leeds players were recently convicted of a very violent assault and spent time in custody, several more were caught taking banned substances - once again no supporters of other clubs made any particular fuss about the detriment to the game. It seems to me (and I am sure that you will accuse me of being paranoid) but it seems to me that fans from just about every other club LOVE to see bad things happen at Wigan (did you celebrate when Faz was injured or when the whole union thing blew up?) or even better they get the chance to criticize us.
Wigan fans are a loyal bunch (it says so on our shirts) and always want the best for our club - and if that means that we petition against what we see as unfair rules, then we make no apology for that - because you would do the same if the roles were reversed
ANCIENT AND LOYAL!
Non Wigan fans have never forgiven Wigan for their success in the 80s/90s and every time we complain about something we are labeled as cheats and as wanting a one-sided competition - "like it used to be". When in fact all we want is the best chance possible of our club winning the league - the same as any fan.
As much as it pains me to admit it, since Super League started our trophy count is not exactly staggering, we've done OK, however we are some way below our former level of success - not surprisingly, Wigan fans are disappointed about this. The salary cap and 20/20 rule have contributed to our problems (along with injuries and a couple of questionable signings) as we've had to release players that we would have otherwise kept - namely Briscoe and Robinson, who in Briscoe's case have gone to other clubs and done very well. As a fan this is VERY frustrating.
By arguing against the salary cap and the player swap issue that you seem so dead against, Maurice is merely trying to do the best for the club - something that he is employed to do. We are not the only people that have complained against the 20/20, Bradford have, as well as stains and I am pretty sure Leeds have too at some point.
After being found guilty of cheating Sean Long was banned - something he took without much complaint. However as soon as his ban was up he went on and on about how unfairly he had been treated - I don't see anyone from anywhere but Wigan bringing him to task for this. Also stains have fielded weak (which is an understatement) teams in matches prior to the CC final - again no-one except Wigan seem to bring this up. Several Leeds players were recently convicted of a very violent assault and spent time in custody, several more were caught taking banned substances - once again no supporters of other clubs made any particular fuss about the detriment to the game. It seems to me (and I am sure that you will accuse me of being paranoid) but it seems to me that fans from just about every other club LOVE to see bad things happen at Wigan (did you celebrate when Faz was injured or when the whole union thing blew up?) or even better they get the chance to criticize us.
Wigan fans are a loyal bunch (it says so on our shirts) and always want the best for our club - and if that means that we petition against what we see as unfair rules, then we make no apology for that - because you would do the same if the roles were reversed
ANCIENT AND LOYAL!
"And Martin Offiah, trying to make some space, now then..." - Ray French, Wembley 1994
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Interviewer: So that obviously means that you're not going to St Helens and you're not going to Leeds?
Frano: I don't know why I would ever want to go to St Helens or Leeds
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Interviewer: So that obviously means that you're not going to St Helens and you're not going to Leeds?
Frano: I don't know why I would ever want to go to St Helens or Leeds
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primrose-n-blue
- Posts: 763
- Joined: Fri Mar 05, 2004 2:23 am
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
primrose-n-blue posted:
....
Where can you draw a guide line at who you can bring in for who is injured?..
GET REAL EGG HEAD LYNDSEY..HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK THE RUGBY LEAGUE SUPPORTER IS?
Some good posts there.
Still nobody has gave me another answer to the question!
It comes across though as if you don't really condone what he's askin for and rightly want your team to become the best on the same terms as every other team!
Denis :craz:
:with: Maurice
Re: Wingin Wigan Maurice!
Have you ever heard of the players union and work permits?primrose-n-blue posted:primrose-n-blue posted:
....
Where can you draw a guide line at who you can bring in for who is injured?..
GET REAL EGG HEAD LYNDSEY..HOW DUMB DO YOU THINK THE RUGBY LEAGUE SUPPORTER IS?
Some good posts there.
Still nobody has gave me another answer to the question!
It comes across though as if you don't really condone what he's askin for and rightly want your team to become the best on the same terms as every other team!
Denis :craz:
:with: Maurice
You can't just bring in a player to replace another without the say so of the players union and without a work permit which would not be granted on the basis you have been describing.
The players union must put its name to the work permit so if the incoming player would be taking an existing players job under dubious circumstances they would not endorse the work permit.
That is assuming the home office would consider issuing one in the first place which they probably would not.
Pre-salary cap at the time of Blake and Davidson a club could employ as many players as it liked (no 20/20) and all clubs used to take Aussies in their off season when we played in winter on short term deals. For example in 1985 we have Kenny and Ferguson and Hull had Stirling and Kemble. Those four were brought in for the final having played a short stint in the Aussie off season. That won't happen now and there are rules to prevent it.
I don't know what you are on about with respect to getting a replacement in for Farrell because of his injury. The only replacement we are looking for is for Davico who's career looks over.
If there was no 20/20 as said before the squad would be about 22 or 23 experienced players and so there would be no need to play youngsters before their time when injuroes hit.
In Australia their salary cap can be spread how a club sees fit over 25 players. No stupid 20/20 rule.
Dave