Is this what we can expect this season

[Fraggle]

gab0512 posted:
It's the second game of the season and we are not match fit yet, although we do look like we have put a lot of preseason training in.

So at which point will we get match fitness? It's no good spending half the season getting up to speed, that top-2 spot has already gone by that time. I didn't see the Wakefield game so can't really comment, but we should be match-fit right from the start of the season. Other teams seem to be, Leeds aren't suffering, are they? It's only a short season, and if we're to show championship potential we need to be beating those teams in the top 6, regardless of how well they've improved. If we can't beat Wakefield then there's more chance of Wakefield getting to the final than us. I know it's early in the season to be saying such things, but it's a relatively short season and we need to be getting the points in to be hitting top spot.

[craigbeck]

I must admit I am a little nervous about this season. The squad does seam a little young and light. Gareth Hock has bulked up quite well and I am very impressed with Seu-Seu but you can feel Faz is being missed not just as a leader but as a heavy weight player.

I think we need to sign an experienced, big name ASAP

[gab0512]

Fraggle there is a difference between training and playing, and it's the same in any sport at any level. I would expect that we will hit top match fitness after 3-4 games max. We did the same last year and the year before. It's about peaking at the right time and giving maximum potential to win things. Look at saints last year. Got off to a flyer with sky etc saying they look unbeatable. After cup final they rapidly disintegrated.

What I was trying to get across is that it's way too early to be this depressed about losing a game, and call for half the squad to be ditched along with ML and DB. What we need to be doing is what we are called - SUPPORTERS. That means supporting the team through thick and thin. I have the clubs badge and the words 'Wigan til I die' tattoed on my arm. That means no matter what I will support the team even if they lost every game and got relegated.

We should be giving encouragement to the lads rather than just keep knocking them after every defeat. That won't do any good whatsover, other than to rid them of even more confidence. Not one of our players goes out there to deliberately lose, but sometimes the game plan doesn't work, we drop balls etc etc. As far as I know, not one team has ever gone undeated in a league season (stand to be corrected if true). Even our great team of late 80s 90s lost 2 games a year. That's life so people need to deal with it in a positive not negative way. There are too many other club's supporters willing to knock our team - Why should we!

[Fraggle]

gab0512 posted:
Fraggle there is a difference between training and playing, and it's the same in any sport at any level. I would expect that we will hit top match fitness after 3-4 games max. We did the same last year and the year before. It's about peaking at the right time and giving maximum potential to win things. Look at saints last year. Got off to a flyer with sky etc saying they look unbeatable. After cup final they rapidly disintegrated.

And look at Leeds last year, they got off to a flyer and stayed there all year. Yes, we got off to a bad start last year and the year before, but we won nothing. Coincidence, perhaps?

What I was trying to get across is that it's way too early to be this depressed about losing a game, and call for half the squad to be ditched along with ML and DB. What we need to be doing is what we are called - SUPPORTERS. That means supporting the team through thick and thin. I have the clubs badge and the words 'Wigan til I die' tattoed on my arm. That means no matter what I will support the team even if they lost every game and got relegated.

That I'm not going to disagree with, and I'm happy to say I've not been calling the players. There are always some people who will proclaim doom and gloom after one game, and sometimes it's not justified but on other occasions, where we've been guilty of rubbish handling, poor vision and mistakes when the criticism is justified. From what I hear Saturday wasn't in that category and we weren't far off what was needed, but at the same time we're not showing anything like championship-winning form after 4 games. The loss to Salford in the friendly was dreadful, and the victory in the league wasn't really very convincing. The other two games I didn't see but I doubt we're up to speed yet. But when will we be? This Friday? Good Friday? Friday 13th? The season has already started, points are there to be won, other clubs already seem to be on a roll, and if we're not playing to our potential then people have a right to be critical.

As for getting rid of Chairman Mo, you'll find that's a regular topic from some of us and not one that's related to us winning or losing games! The idea of getting rid of Betts so early is, however, pretty ridiculous, as is criticism of players who've only just arrived. Vaealiki missed one friendly and played less than half of the first league game, is obviously still getting back to fitness and surely shouldn't be condemned until he's had a fair chance. Of course, there's always the chance he won't regain his fitness, and that goes back to criticism of ML buying players, not for the first time, whose fitness is debatable.

We should be giving encouragement to the lads rather than just keep knocking them after every defeat. That won't do any good whatsover, other than to rid them of even more confidence. Not one of our players goes out there to deliberately lose, but sometimes the game plan doesn't work, we drop balls etc etc.

Game plans not working are one thing, those can be countered by the opposition or the game itself may not lend itself to following a particular plan (eg bad weather). But who drops balls? That's 100% down to the players. From my very little experience of trying to play rugby league I remember that keeping hold of the ball is the most basic thing, and you're not allowed to go on until you've mastered that. But sometimes we're guilty of such basic errors as not watching the ball and so dropping it, or throwing a pass to no-one by not looking. That's not good enough, and Wigan supporters have high standards.

As far as I know, not one team has ever gone undeated in a league season (stand to be corrected if true). Even our great team of late 80s 90s lost 2 games a year. That's life so people need to deal with it in a positive not negative way. There are too many other club's supporters willing to knock our team - Why should we!

As I agree, it's early days, but on the performances I've seen so far it's clear we need to improve. The fact that the league seems open is a positive thing, but all the other clubs are going to have to watch out that Wakefield and especially Leeds don't keep up their good form and are out-of-sight before Easter.

I'm not being as pessimistic as some on here but at the same time I'm not going to pretend it's all sweetness and light, and that things will magically improve this weekend without some hard work going on.

[Matthew]

I think that the start to the season looks like being very similar to our starts of the previous few seasons - rather disappointing

I for one remember stains fans chanting "going down" last year because of our awful start. I struggle to remember the last time Wigan started a season with a winning run - can anyone tell me the last time they were top of the Super League table - even if it was only for a week?

Doug made a good point about stand off, Danny Orr has not grown into the role at all. Apart from the occasional pass he is not the same player he was a Cas. In fact I would not rate O'Neil (the pass to Connolly aside in the CC final in 2000), Florimo or Johns (pity we didn't get his brother). I don't think that we have had a match winner at 6 since Henry Paul - apart from when Faz has played there.

I think that several of the younger players that were marked as being future stars have failed to live up to their potential to date - although that is not to say that they won't in the future.

We didn't just miss Faz on Saturday, we missed both wingers (I had to check the match report to remember who was on the other wing to Colbon) and at least 2 props.

At the beginning of the season the side should be fit - as injuries generally only get worse as the season progresses - yet for the last few seasons we always seem to have key players missing. One season you could put down to just bad luck, however when it has happened this many times, surely someone should look into why?

I don't see a lot of point in criticising players (much less saying they are not fit to wear the shirt) as long as they try their hardest - it's up to the club to get the players that we need to win and no-one can give more than 100%

As was pointed out above - I would support Wigan (even though I am not from the town) if they lost every single game and were relegated - I've have got the chinese characters for Ancient and Loyal tattooed on my back and whilst at 31 I am not exactly ancient (yet) there is no way anyone could accuse me of not being loyal.

We've hard times ahead of this season (realistically I don't see a trophy this year - though I'll keep hoping), with Faz's projected move, injuries and a young side - however if we are going to give up 2 games into the season; then we didn't deserve to win anything in the first place.

[Fraggle]

Matthew posted:
I struggle to remember the last time Wigan started a season with a winning run - can anyone tell me the last time they were top of the Super League table - even if it was only for a week?

1999, I think. I remember that was the first year I'd had a season ticket, and we started off the season by putting a hatfull past Hull. Unfortunately things went downhill after that bright beginning, but at that point of the season at least things looked good.

Doug made a good point about stand off, Danny Orr has not grown into the role at all. Apart from the occasional pass he is not the same player he was a Cas. In fact I would not rate O'Neil (the pass to Connolly aside in the CC final in 2000), Florimo or Johns (pity we didn't get his brother). I don't think that we have had a match winner at 6 since Henry Paul - apart from when Faz has played there.

I'd agree with some of that. Florimo was useless, and one of the reasons '99 was a disaster. O'Neill had his moments but seemed to play better as a centre than stand-off. Johns was injured so we never saw the best of him. Phil Jones also played there and had about 2 good games and for the others ranged from anonymous to useless. Lockers doesn't do a bad job, and we've seen some sparks from Danny Orr but not really enough to give too much hope. Hopefully he can hit some form this season.

[gab0512]

Sorry Doug but have to disagree again - must be one of them days for me lol.

Hock was my MOM against Salford just pipping tickle. I don't think they get the credit they deserve for the hit ups and tackles they put into each game. Tickle and Hock have both bulked up off season, and I expect them to keep getting better as the season goes on. Moran and Orr have played 2 competitive games together and will need time to adjust to both each other and the Wigan pattern.

I am not happy with the fact we got beat on Saturday - hate losing. But I am also one for not slating everybody and anybody just cos we did. At this moment in time encouragement from the fans is needed - let DB give them a rollocking. That's why he is coach and we are not.

The problem we have had over the last few years is that our props are garbage and don't make yards. They don't have the impact that they should. Sculthorpe is just never fit, and I am definitely reserving judgement on SeuSeu as he is in a new country and needs to settle. All the GF winners over the last 4-5 years have always had 3-4 world class props. We have 0 until proven to stay fit or once settled. We need 2 more props who are good.

The problem I have with Guisset coming is that he was very inconsistent at Warrington. If he was any good, why would Warrington not give him another contract? Is he the best we could get - or was he just the cheapest? That is the question

[waterside glens]

gab0512 posted:
Talk about how fickle some people are! Our first (close) defeat of the season with 25% of our 1st team squad missing, against a very much improved Wakefield side. They made the top 6 last year, and must go down as one of the most improved sides in the league.

It's the second game of the season and we are not match fit yet, although we do look like we have put a lot of preseason training in. The first half was a real stop start affair with the mistakes both teams made. The referee did not help with the number of penalties he wanted to give. Like the team I hope they settle down as the season goes on.

I think the only disappointment from Friday was the lack of control our forwards had. I would put Wild back in the forwards, and keep aspinwall at centre.

The late 80's and early 90's were a bit of anomaly as we were probably the only full time professional team. We also had a lot outstanding talent emerge at the same time.

How anybody can critise Mo for his 'big name' Aussie signings is beyond me! He gave us the opportunity (if old enough to remember) to see the likes of Brett Kenny - Gene Miles - Steve Renouf - Ian Roberts etc etc etc. If you cut him open he would have Wigan running through him. He was the saviour after the Robinson/board debacle and the sale to Tesco's. So give him a break - It's only one defeat in a long season.

As for changing half the team - I'm glad your not a chairman or we would definitely be in the smell stuff. I wonder if you will change your minds when we beat Bradford on Friday? Keep it in perspective as you sound like you didn't watch the team in the 70's!!!

a very level headed summary the lack of power and size though could make us easier for teams to prepare against

[Fraggle]

gab0512 posted:
The problem I have with Guisset coming is that he was very inconsistent at Warrington. If he was any good, why would Warrington not give him another contract? Is he the best we could get - or was he just the cheapest? That is the question

Or the only one available?! The week the season starts isn't the best time to try finding available players, unless we were to approach the RFU and ask if they had any players available who might be interested in changing codes...

[thegimble]

Fraggle posted:

gab0512 posted:
The problem I have with Guisset coming is that he was very inconsistent at Warrington. If he was any good, why would Warrington not give him another contract? Is he the best we could get - or was he just the cheapest? That is the question

Or the only one available?! The week the season starts isn't the best time to try finding available players, unless we were to approach the RFU and ask if they had any players available who might be interested in changing codes...

Oh common the props in union are there for 2 resons only.

1. Scrummaging
2. Lineout (lifting the jumper)

A union prop would not last 30 minutes a match. League props need to be able to handle the ball union props sees it a few of times a match, where as in League they are the main carriers.

From what i understood last season he was going to France as he could settel down there and join the new League side next season.

I maybe wrong.