Re: Danny Orr Debate

Welski · Post by **Welski** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:13 am

Danny Orr? We shouldn't have touched him with a barge pole.

proud_pie_eater · Post by **proud_pie_eater** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 11:44 am

I think Danny Orr has his moments but I think over all he is a good player and a valuble member of the team. Although I think Dennis Betts should give Kevin Brown a go at standoff because I know he likes Kevin Brown at stand off (has a weakness for him awww) so he should give him the chance, hes playing all over the place this season and needs to find his best suited position!

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:31 pm

I love you lot, rather your comments amuse me. It's been the same with every stand off we have had for about the last 6 years, Matthew Johns was denegrated by the fans for failing to produce, Julian O'neill also ,and now its the turn of Danny Orr aswel. Are all these bad players ? no they are not, we play a system where we use very few dummy runners, we play way to flat in attack, combine these 2 aspects of our game and it left where both our halves have very little options when going forward, even at Cas Danny Orr always had runners, that creates a little bit of confusion in the oppositions mind and can give players that chance at a break or haf break, but at the moment he isnt getting any runners, the lines to flat so hes running around looking for runners that are not there and if they are they are to flat anyway, and nowadays with the fitness levels being so high you dont find many gaps in defensive lines, thats where varying your attack comes in so people like Danny Orr can exploit them, but we dont. In my oppinion our whole style of play is to blame and not just Danny Orr, we lack ideas and structure.

thegimble · Post by **thegimble** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:39 pm

ChrisA posted:
I love you lot, rather your comments amuse me. It's been the same with every stand off we have had for about the last 6 years, Matthew Johns was denegrated by the fans for failing to produce, Julian O'neill also ,and now its the turn of Danny Orr aswel. Are all these bad players ? no they are not, we play a system where we use very few dummy runners, we play way to flat in attack, combine these 2 aspects of our game and it left where both our halves have very little options when going forward, even at Cas Danny Orr always had runners, that creates a little bit of confusion in the oppositions mind and can give players that chance at a break or haf break, but at the moment he isnt getting any runners, the lines to flat so hes running around looking for runners that are not there and if they are they are to flat anyway, and nowadays with the fitness levels being so high you dont find many gaps in defensive lines, thats where varying your attack comes in so people like Danny Orr can exploit them, but we dont. In my oppinion our whole style of play is to blame and not just Danny Orr, we lack ideas and structure.

Yes there is a pattern we ran our games through Faz now give Orr a chance. Matty Johns was turned into an average player in the team due to letting Faz run games and playing a pattern through the loose forward.

Give Orr until end of the season if no imporovement then yes he got to go. Just guive him until then and then judge him.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 12:58 pm

thegimble posted:
ChrisA posted:
I love you lot, rather your comments amuse me. It's been the same with every stand off we have had for about the last 6 years, Matthew Johns was denegrated by the fans for failing to produce, Julian O'neill also ,and now its the turn of Danny Orr aswel. Are all these bad players ? no they are not, we play a system where we use very few dummy runners, we play way to flat in attack, combine these 2 aspects of our game and it left where both our halves have very little options when going forward, even at Cas Danny Orr always had runners, that creates a little bit of confusion in the oppositions mind and can give players that chance at a break or haf break, but at the moment he isnt getting any runners, the lines to flat so hes running around looking for runners that are not there and if they are they are to flat anyway, and nowadays with the fitness levels being so high you dont find many gaps in defensive lines, thats where varying your attack comes in so people like Danny Orr can exploit them, but we dont. In my oppinion our whole style of play is to blame and not just Danny Orr, we lack ideas and structure.
Yes there is a pattern we ran our games through Faz now give Orr a chance. Matty Johns was turned into an average player in the team due to letting Faz run games and playing a pattern through the loose forward.

Give Orr until end of the season if no imporovement then yes he got to go. Just guive him until then and then judge him.

Exactly, around the 96-97 season, we started to lose all our best players, and the only real playmaker we had left was Farrel. So we depended on him every week and our whole game plan was built around him. We have never truely gotten away from that even when we got in Adrian Lam and Matty Johns(lets not forget Lam suffered similar doubts), we do base our whole game around Farrel, but thats all wrong, your attack should be based around your halves and not a loose forward. We have got into a rut where we dont really play great attacking rugby, we dont play to much off the cuff rugby like Saints or Leeds do. We need to be more expansive with our game, we need more runners and have a deeper line, until we do this, who ever we have at stand off will look like a bad player.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:30 pm

Doug Stand posted:
I disagree with the point to base your players around your halves. It doesn't matter what position you play if you are a ball player. Look at Hull in 85, Steve Norton the then loose forward went first receiver a lot of the time and fed Stirling and Ah Koh. (esxcuse spelling)
Old fashioned Field props used to be the ball players
Now is Faz really that much of a ball player??? He's not in the league of Edwards, Gregory or Kenny for picking out a pass. Currently we don't have a player like that and you need one.
You would never have had Hanley in a first receiver as a ball player because he couldn't pass, he was runner and although he was special in that he could create his own openings, runners rely on the pass. So what is Orr, what is his speciality? He's not a ball player, he doesn't make the breaks...what is he doing? Backing up???? maybe... The stand-off in any side has to be the one that can turn a game. OK not in every play, but the one to do something magic. Maguire does it, Horne, Rooney do it... Orr does not.

OK he was out for a good bit with injury last year and I accept that, but he needs to start imposing himself in games starting on Friday!

Yes agreed on some points, it doesnt matter what postion you are if you are a ball player, and use them to the best you can, but you cant base your game on a ball playing prop can you, and yes Steve Norton was an awsome ball player, but in those days with the 5 metre rule, players had to stand deeper, players had to be alot better with the ball than what they are now, the game was diferent then (for the better aswel) players knew how to stand deep and use dummy runners, people knew how to hit a gap, thats doesnt happen much anymore because of the 10 metre rule, you cant compare the sitution from 1985 because the game has changed since then. And anyone with Peter Stirling at scrum half will always get good ball in decent positions.

And as for Mcguire, hes playing a better team than what we have, hes playing in a team thant know how to use the ball alot better than we do, they go out and play good flowing attacking rugby, he gets the chance to shine because he has a pack of forwards who make yards and make plenty of spce for him, he just backs them up mostly and scores the tries.

Danny Orr just seems to be lacking any confidence in himslef at the moment, but I agree he does need to start imposing himself dam soon, or his time at Wigan will not be a happy one.

ChrisA · Post by **ChrisA** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 2:45 pm

Doug Stand posted:
Yeah good point on the 5m rule Chris.. but you get the overall drift on what I'm saying.
Also, yeah you are right with Maguire and Leeds. Like my Dad says if you have a decent pack you can pick your backs up on the streets. Good points you make.
Leeds are a better outfit than us (stops to choke) which put even more pressure on the stand-off to do something. Now I know he's no Hanley and there will never be another one, but how many times did we see Wigan playing oh so bad, pack and all and Hanley do something out of the blue and the game was won.
Regadless as to what the stand-off is behind he has to have the edge that when he gets the ball something could happen. I don't feel that with Orr.

Yeah I get your drift Doug and you do make some good points, I just feel he is good enough, he is just lacking confidence in himself, he just needs to stay fit and get some decent games in, that will bring the confidence he needs to really stamp down his authority.

thegimble · Post by **thegimble** » Fri Feb 25, 2005 5:14 pm

Doug Stand posted:
ChrisA posted:
Yeah I get your drift Doug and you do make some good points, I just feel he is good enough, he is just lacking confidence in himself, he just needs to stay fit and get some decent games in, that will bring the confidence he needs to really stamp down his authority.
Agreed, confidence is everything.
Right I'm off the Orr bashing bandwagon as from now. I really want him to do well for his own sake as for the team and supporters. I'll give him until...end of May. By then we will know.

You know there are some players who just can't cut it at Wigan. The ghosts of players past weigh heavy on new players shoulders... and I'm the worse one for comparing with the olden days, aplogies for that and here's to Danny Orr

Also the excpectaitions of some fans can weigh just as heavily, and when the don not perform we are the first on there backs.

The Black Pearl · Post by **The Black Pearl** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 9:50 am

These are my feelings on Danny Orr. I have given him time to settle in as I didn't want to be seen to be on the lads back from day one. This time has long passed. I thought that maybe Faz was a very powerful influence on how Wigan go about their business and maybe Danny wasn't a string enough character to grap hold of the game and put Faz in his place and say I'm the ball p;ayer your the runner. Even with Faz out of the side this is no improvement. I hate to be the bearer of bad news but Danny Orr is not good enough to play stand off for Wigan. I think the pressure and expectation that comes with playing for what I still believe is the biggest Rugby club in the world seems to have stiffled his play. He seemed a free spirit at Castleford were he was one of their own and had only the eyes of the handful of Cas fans watching him every week. I can't deny that he has qualities he defends well above his weight but being a stand-off myself I don't want to see him making so many tackles. He is there to create play and this is something he saddly lacks in his game. I agree that a good pack would make him look better, lets not forget backs are for show and it'd foreards for dow, but even with this a don't think you would see a massive improvement in Danny. I think we should allow Danny to end his nightmare and as the wounded Tiger he is go back to Yorkshire and hopefully prove me wrong.

GeoffN · Post by **GeoffN** » Sat Feb 26, 2005 3:03 pm

I'm still open minded about Danny, I think he will come good, but how long can we afford to give him? I do think Kevin Brown adds an extra spark when he plays at 6 though. He had a good game again last night apart from that one silly pass.