The Disciplinary Panel

[cpwigan]

Tues 14th October C Batty D Sculthorpe N Turley

[Mike]

Can we do something constructive here?

How about we setup a site that logs all the video of incidents togehter with charge and outcome. That way we can check the consistency of the panels decisions and allow clubs to have a very easy to access archive of incidents to support their appeals and arguements?

I'd be happy to try and figure out how to do this, but I won't have time to find the footage.

ANy takers?

[markill]

Can we do something constructive here?

How about we setup a site that logs all the video of incidents togehter with charge and outcome. That way we can check the consistency of the panels decisions and allow clubs to have a very easy to access archive of incidents to support their appeals and arguements?

I'd be happy to try and figure out how to do this, but I won't have time to find the footage.

ANy takers?

That site could explode. There would be a lot of bans for users with some of the bile that gets spouted in direction of officials, players and clubs just going off social media reactions! Haha.

But I'd be willing to contribute sensibly to such a site. I'm actually writing something at the moment that it's a review of the 2014 disciplinary decisions - I thought I was pretty much done and ready to publish until 6:03pm last Saturday!

A difficulty is footage for incidents that are not in game flare ups. If it isn't a fight or a card or an injury then it's very hard to find incidents reviewed from non-televised games. Don't know how many clubs offer what we get on Wigan tv but that would help, although the two week delay would be a shame and you might not get great camera angles at least you might find all the incidents on tape somewhere. Finding footage of the incidents that were looked at with no charge given can be very very hard.

The other big issue is bias. Fans are incredibly bias sometimes (often) without realising they are, and even when they think they aren't being biased a fan of an opposition club will accuse them of such if their is a disagreement in opinion, which there always is! I had a Wire fan unfollow the podcast Twitter account just because I was a Wigan fan that pointed out Westwood should have been sent off in last years grand final for his cheap shot even though I accepted that Flower's 2nd punch meant the two incidents were not the same and Flower's was worse for that punch.

[DaveO]

Can we do something constructive here?

How about we setup a site that logs all the video of incidents togehter with charge and outcome. That way we can check the consistency of the panels decisions and allow clubs to have a very easy to access archive of incidents to support their appeals and arguements?

I'd be happy to try and figure out how to do this, but I won't have time to find the footage.

ANy takers?

That site could explode. There would be a lot of bans for users with some of the bile that gets spouted in direction of officials, players and clubs just going off social media reactions! Haha.

I don't think Mike meant for it to be an interactive site! Just a reference site where videos a logged against the outcome of the panel.

Copyright might be an issue with the videos but it would be a great resource and one that cold potentially make the RFL squirm.

A difficulty is footage for incidents that are not in game flare ups. If it isn't a fight or a card or an injury then it's very hard to find incidents reviewed from non-televised games.

I don't think that is a problem. You go with what you have got and over time you will still build up a body of evidence.

The other big issue is bias. Fans are incredibly bias sometimes (often) without realising they are, and even when they think they aren't being biased a fan of an opposition club will accuse them of such if their is a disagreement in opinion, which there always is! I had a Wire fan unfollow the podcast Twitter account just because I was a Wigan fan that pointed out Westwood should have been sent off in last years grand final for his cheap shot even though I accepted that Flower's 2nd punch meant the two incidents were not the same and Flower's was worse for that punch.

If it is a pure reference site there is no bias. It's video of incident and outcome of panel. Nothing much else. You can then compare the verdicts and discuss them elsewhere.

Over time as the videos built up you would see how consistent (or not) the bans were.

Categorising them would be interesting so it was easier to compare like with like. I would not have to be grade but what the players actually did because as we just saw LH got charged on a low tariff and I am sure other players who led with a forearm got a higher tariff.

[markill]

Can we do something constructive here?

How about we setup a site that logs all the video of incidents togehter with charge and outcome. That way we can check the consistency of the panels decisions and allow clubs to have a very easy to access archive of incidents to support their appeals and arguements?

I'd be happy to try and figure out how to do this, but I won't have time to find the footage.

ANy takers?

That site could explode. There would be a lot of bans for users with some of the bile that gets spouted in direction of officials, players and clubs just going off social media reactions! Haha.

I don't think Mike meant for it to be an interactive site! Just a reference site where videos a logged against the outcome of the panel.

Copyright might be an issue with the videos but it would be a great resource and one that cold potentially make the RFL squirm.

A difficulty is footage for incidents that are not in game flare ups. If it isn't a fight or a card or an injury then it's very hard to find incidents reviewed from non-televised games.

I don't think that is a problem. You go with what you have got and over time you will still build up a body of evidence.

The other big issue is bias. Fans are incredibly bias sometimes (often) without realising they are, and even when they think they aren't being biased a fan of an opposition club will accuse them of such if their is a disagreement in opinion, which there always is! I had a Wire fan unfollow the podcast Twitter account just because I was a Wigan fan that pointed out Westwood should have been sent off in last years grand final for his cheap shot even though I accepted that Flower's 2nd punch meant the two incidents were not the same and Flower's was worse for that punch.

If it is a pure reference site there is no bias. It's video of incident and outcome of panel. Nothing much else. You can then compare the verdicts and discuss them elsewhere.

Over time as the videos built up you would see how consistent (or not) the bans were.

Categorising them would be interesting so it was easier to compare like with like. I would not have to be grade but what the players actually did because as we just saw LH got charged on a low tariff and I am sure other players who led with a forearm got a higher tariff.

Haha. Obviously we thought differently, I thought he meant an open forum like this one not a purely reference tool. Anyway, in that case, the site already exists just the footage isn't put up there yet - videos should be attached to the records on the RFL disciplinary site, which is a point I've made before but not sure if I've made it on here.

[Wiganer Ted]

A great idea!
We could start by juxtapositioning the still image from Saturday of the mmoment of impact when Hohaia's elbow/forearm hits Flower's jaw with the photograph of Hepworth slamming his elbow into Colin Tyrer's jaw in the 1970 Cup Final.
Both will will be remarkably similar.

[Mike]

Nah, I was thinking a dry reference only site that made it easy to call up video of similar graded incidents with similar notes. So you could quickly and easily check consistency and present this as evidence at your hearing.

In fact, why should we do this - sure the RFL has video evidence for every hearing, so why don't they log that with their notes.

[Mike]

A great idea!
We could start by juxtapositioning the still image from Saturday of the mmoment of impact when Hohaia's elbow/forearm hits Flower's jaw with the photograph of Hepworth slamming his elbow into Colin Tyrer's jaw in the 1970 Cup Final.
Both will will be remarkably similar.

Although I sure you were being bit sarcastic, Its not for that sort of thing. You need the context of the incident. This idea is not to serve Wigan or make a point.

Having read the other threads, perhaps this makes one solid suggestion of what could be done to help make the process more consistent and transparent.

The videos should have the grade and resulting ban burnt into them so you can just edit together the footage to provide context for the current incident. Presented with a 5 minute video of the most similar incidents it would be hard to deviate significantly from the required punishment. Also it can serve as a method of reviewing the consistency of individual panel members.

[thegimble]

A great idea!
We could start by juxtapositioning the still image from Saturday of the mmoment of impact when Hohaia's elbow/forearm hits Flower's jaw with the photograph of Hepworth slamming his elbow into Colin Tyrer's jaw in the 1970 Cup Final.
Both will will be remarkably similar.

Although I sure you were being bit sarcastic, Its not for that sort of thing. You need the context of the incident. This idea is not to serve Wigan or make a point.

Having read the other threads, perhaps this makes one solid suggestion of what could be done to help make the process more consistent and transparent.

The videos should have the grade and resulting ban burnt into them so you can just edit together the footage to provide context for the current incident. Presented with a 5 minute video of the most similar incidents it would be hard to deviate significantly from the required punishment. Also it can serve as a method of reviewing the consistency of individual panel members.

But Mike the RFL does not want a consistent system. Westwood this season would have got 4-6 game ban for the hit on Blake Green. RFL need to be able to manipulate the system to its own needs.

LH all day long is a 3-4 game ban but incase the media have a pop at them they give him 1-2 with him getting 1. The system needs to be taken completely out of the hands of the RFL. But they will not let that happen incase they need to bend the guidelines to suite which ever agenda they have that day.

[Mike]

They are the governing body. We have to reform them, and provide systems that are more and more transparent so inconsistency and corruption is harder and harder to get away with.

The alternative is to break away from the SL (which is now the same as the RFL) and setup our own competition again. To do that we would need the support of pretty much every other chairman and with that the RFL would reform anyway to remove the need of it happening. To get that much support in the game we wouldn't be able to focus on individual incidents, we'd have to prove systematic problems in an organisation not fit for purpose.

Banging on about BF and LH's bans does not help and of this.

This is not a head in the sand issue. TBH to me the people arguing about BF being sold down the river etc have their heads in the sand about how best to affect change. The assume that if you make enough noise in any situation, then you will get your way.