What is happening to the Labour Party?

[Wintergreen]

Labour has had it's day.

In a Globalised economy there is no room for giving Trade Unions any more power then they have.

A left leaning centrist party is the future for them.

[fozzieskem]

It all started when John Smith died

You ain't wrong at all the current party is an unelectable shambles,far worse than the Foot era party

And the rot started when Blair and his cronies made the party into New Labour and created a second Tory party to try to attract the middle class vote which has resulted in thousands of traditional Labour voters no long seeing it as the party they were brought up to believe in or no longer represents them and rather than vote for another party, don't vote at all.

Corbyn may be unelectable in the eyes of some, but the fact remains that he was elected by the membership of the party and not just the MP's as is the case within the Tory Party.

Many of the MP's in Parliament and indeed local Councils are out of touch with the people who elect them as is the case here in the Wigan area where our local MP's have not selected as candidates by members of the local parties, but have been told the have to have them by the HQ of the party.

Another reason I no longer vote Labour as I take exception to the HQ of the party telling local party members who they have to have as their candidate and no say in the matter.

In fairness the tory mp's choose a couple of ducks and their membership have a postal vote,so they do nowadays have a say in who leads the party.

The issue though is simple,you have to look to the country not just your own membership when choosing a leader,its madness what has gone on,for all Blairs many faults he had an appeal that crossed borders in this country,maybe apart from Thatcher i can't think of anyone else whos been able to do that.

Your right of course about the other points and it was this imposition that made me leave the party,local level had to have some say.

Hard left politics will never be in power in this country of that im sure again,maybe left of centre at best but the lurch to the right will be hard to correct to get back to the centre ground,to go left wing i feel is utterly impossible,Corbyn is part of the old guard and should have remained on the back benches.

[cpwigan]

I hope Corby cannot stand because by myunderstanding he needs sufficient MPs to enable him to do so. The rules need clarifying thereafter. If Corbyn want to stand, form a new party, Momentumor Loony Left Trots.

[Owd Codger]

You ain't wrong at all the current party is an unelectable shambles,far worse than the Foot era party

And the rot started when Blair and his cronies made the party into New Labour and created a second Tory party to try to attract the middle class vote which has resulted in thousands of traditional Labour voters no long seeing it as the party they were brought up to believe in or no longer represents them and rather than vote for another party, don't vote at all.

Corbyn may be unelectable in the eyes of some, but the fact remains that he was elected by the membership of the party and not just the MP's as is the case within the Tory Party.

Many of the MP's in Parliament and indeed local Councils are out of touch with the people who elect them as is the case here in the Wigan area where our local MP's have not selected as candidates by members of the local parties, but have been told the have to have them by the HQ of the party.

Another reason I no longer vote Labour as I take exception to the HQ of the party telling local party members who they have to have as their candidate and no say in the matter.

In fairness the tory mp's choose a couple of ducks and their membership have a postal vote,so they do nowadays have a say in who leads the party.

The issue though is simple,you have to look to the country not just your own membership when choosing a leader,its madness what has gone on,for all Blairs many faults he had an appeal that crossed borders in this country,maybe apart from Thatcher i can't think of anyone else whos been able to do that.

Your right of course about the other points and it was this imposition that made me leave the party,local level had to have some say.

Hard left politics will never be in power in this country of that im sure again,maybe left of centre at best but the lurch to the right will be hard to correct to get back to the centre ground,to go left wing i feel is utterly impossible,Corbyn is part of the old guard and should have remained on the back benches.

Hard left or even hard right politic's will never be allowed in this country as the establishment in the form of 'Freemason' and other organisations at he top like the 'Yeomen of England' will see that it never happen in order to protect the Crown.

When Herald Wilson was Prime Minster, he once said that a Labour Government could only go so far to the left and if it went beyond a certain point, he would be impeached and the Government removed.

Corbyn is not a hard line Socialist, only typical of many Labour politicians and indeed Trade Union leaders of the past like Foot, Benn etc but as a result of Blair moving the party to the right in a attempt to attract the middle England vote, he is being made to look like one not only by the media, but also by many of his own MP's with the result that many traditional Labour voters, myself included no longer vote as they now feel that the party is not representing them in the way it should be doing.

What kind of Labour Party do we now have when a local party cannot elect their own candidate possibly a local person and have to accept one imposed on them by the HQ of the party from a pool of all female or all coloured candidates, many straight from University with no experience of having done a job.

When I was a member of the local Labour party, I voted for the candidate who I considered the best person for the job, not a 'ladder climber' as is the case with Lisa Nandy here in Wigan, who has been put in a safe Labour seat to help her climb the 'ladder'.

The Labour needs to return to its roots as a true alternative Democratic Socialist Party like they have in France and Germany, otherwise it will never get back in power relying on a middle class vote with working class voters not voting at all.

[BriH]

Agree entirely with the last para of your thread Whelley. There is a difference between Socialism and the Left. That's what Jeremy Corbyn brings to the Labour Party. However, he is divisive and, at the end of the day, the most important thing is make the Labour Party electable.
These posts have been very interesting reflecting different points of view.
I have a further observation to make.
The most damage to the Labour Party was done by Thatcher. She hated the Trade Union movement in particular and, by default, the Labour Party and waged war against both.
What scared her most of all was the working class spirit of community.
Remember her notorious comment about Arthur Scargil? "The Enemy within".

[cpwigan]

If Corbyn remains then the Conservatives will win every General Election whilst he is 'leading' Labour

[fozzieskem]

I hope Corby cannot stand because by myunderstanding he needs sufficient MPs to enable him to do so. The rules need clarifying thereafter. If Corbyn want to stand, form a new party, Momentumor Loony Left Trots.

Even if he does somehow stand,the plp has to work with him,who's to say in what 6 months he's done something else that the majority of labour MP's disagree with,another vote incoming and here we go again.

For a man who wants "a new kind of politics" he aint half hanging on like a relic of old politics.

[Owd Codger]

If Corbyn remains then the Conservatives will win every General Election whilst he is 'leading' Labour

Of course they will because Labour is no longer a real alternative to the Tories.

Now only a second Tory Party trying to attract votes of those more wealthy who will always vote Tory with the result that those less wealthy, now feel that the party no longer represents them and do not vote at all as they will never vote Tory.

What chance has the party got when thirds of its MP's are only interested in ladder climbing or what they get out of it in the form of salaries and expenses.

Are you saying that the Labour Party should scrap everything it has ever stood for just to get votes from people who think they are better than others because of their now cushy lifestyles.

Lifestyles that have been gained by the efforts of former Labour and Trade Unions over a century or so, but are now being destroyed by the Tories with the present leadership of the Labour and Trade Union movement standing by doing nothing to stop the rot. Labour even introducing a minimum wage with no increments for working unsocial hours and which has done more harm than good with pay now so poor at the bottom that many now prefer to live on benefits rather than work and let immigrants do the menial jobs.

I for one would sooner see a true Democratic Socialist Labour Party in opposition fighting to protect pay, conditions and fighting to get rid of zero hours contracts rather than a Party full of people like many of its MP's acting like Tories and doing nothing, even to the extent of not accepting the democratic decision of the membership to elect Corbyn.

Yes, the Labour Party is now unelectable but it is not all to do with Corbyn being the leader, but the damage done by Blair and his cronies making the party into a second Tory Party in the eyes of many Labour voters.

[cpwigan]

You can easily offer an alternative without being unelectable. An anti austerity party would be a viable alternative. As it stands Labour has been hijacked by a niche single issue protect voting farce with London/McDonald playing politics with Corbyn the face.

[DaveO]

I hope Corby cannot stand because by myunderstanding he needs sufficient MPs to enable him to do so. The rules need clarifying thereafter. If Corbyn want to stand, form a new party, Momentumor Loony Left Trots.

If you bothered to look at any of the policies being put forward you would see Corbyn's Labour is centre left not some loony left alternative. There are also some genuinely interesting policies such as the citizen's wage (being tried in Finland and Utrecht in Holland).

The problem is the alternative is Tory Lite.

Eagle and the likes of Benn suggest they want to follow the parliamentary route to socialism implying Corbyn can't because he is unelectable hence they are the best option to achieve this.

Therefore they have adopted many Tory policies having totally given up any attempt to change people's minds by making strong cases against such policies.

This is populism, not socialism.

If they really do believe in these policies they have no place in the Labour party. If they are trying to be politically pragmatic suggesting they are appealing to Tory voters by adopting (some) Tory policy they are letting the Tories set the agenda and are weak.

What happened to outright opposition to bad policy?

JC's election as leader should have given Eagle & Co the chance to shake off the shackles of following a Tory inspired agenda and allow them to follow what I'd hope would be their true socialist instincts. They clearly don't want to do so because they are either not socialists or they don't have the guts for the fight.

They have not in my view allowed the slight (and it is slight despite views to the contrary) move to left JC represents to be tested out when presented by a united party.

Has JC made mistakes and does he come across badly in the media? Sure but if those such as Eagle spent as much time supporting him as they do attacking him and offered a united front then maybe it would be possible to combat the right wing attacks on Labour and JC. And make a strong case for very real alternative policies.

There are plenty of good orators in the PLP who could aid Corbyn as Bevan aided Atlee. They have chosen not to it seems and if they get their way Labour can forget ever getting back Scotland and may as well add the Brexit voting North of England and much of Wales to that.

People in the Labour heartlands won't vote for them just to "save the NHS" and neither will floating voters in Tory areas if they see little difference.