Are we turning into a fascist state?

[DaveO]

In political science there are 14 identifying characteristics of fascism. You can see them here https://ratical.org/ratville/CAH/fasci14chars.html

I have reproduced them below with my thoughts below the points in italics:

1. Powerful and Continuing Nationalism
Fascist regimes tend to make constant use of patriotic mottos, slogans, symbols, songs, and other paraphernalia. Flags are seen everywhere, as are flag symbols on clothing and in public displays.

Surely Brexit is the epitome of Nationalism.

2. Disdain for the Recognition of Human Rights
Because of fear of enemies and the need for security, the people in fascist regimes are persuaded that human rights can be ignored in certain cases because of "need." The people tend to look the other way or even approve of torture, summary executions, assassinations, long incarcerations of prisoners, etc.

We aren't as far as we know assassinating people etc but May's and many others desire to withdraw from the ECHR means there is plenty of disdain IMO.

3. Identification of Enemies/Scapegoats as a Unifying Cause
The people are rallied into a unifying patriotic frenzy over the need to eliminate a perceived common threat or foe: racial , ethnic or religious minorities; liberals; communists; socialists, terrorists, etc.

Absolutely! In our case is immigrants who are most certainly the scapegoats. Those with liberal views are not far behind and before Brexit anyone on benefits was right up there.

4. Supremacy of the Military
Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

NHS going belly up and we buy Trident. In fact never mind the NHS we can't even afford to build enough surface ships for the Navy. Say no more.

5. Rampant Sexism
The governments of fascist nations tend to be almost exclusively male-dominated. Under fascist regimes, traditional gender roles are made more rigid. Opposition to abortion is high, as is homophobia and anti-gay legislation and national policy.

There are certainly those in government who oppose anti-gay legislation and are anti-abortion and we have never really dealt with sexism but even so none of these are a defining characteristic of our government so on balance that is a "no".

6. Controlled Mass Media
Sometimes to media is directly controlled by the government, but in other cases, the media is indirectly controlled by government regulation, or sympathetic media spokespeople and executives. Censorship, especially in war time, is very common.

The BBC is scared stiff of the government and most of the press is completely biased toward it.

7. Obsession with National Security
Fear is used as a motivational tool by the government over the masses.

Absolutely. The snoopers charter is proof.


8. Religion and Government are Intertwined
Governments in fascist nations tend to use the most common religion in the nation as a tool to manipulate public opinion. Religious rhetoric and terminology is common from government leaders, even when the major tenets of the religion are diametrically opposed to the government's policies or actions.

Not obviously so, though one of the first things May did was allow faith schools to select 100% based on faith (previously there was a 50% limit unless oversubscribed) so this could be the start.

9. Corporate Power is Protected
The industrial and business aristocracy of a fascist nation often are the ones who put the government leaders into power, creating a mutually beneficial business/government relationship and power elite.

Murdoch, lobbying, donations suggest to me this is a yes also. I am sure others can think of plenty of examples.

10. Labor Power is Suppressed
Because the organizing power of labor is the only real threat to a fascist government, labor unions are either eliminated entirely, or are severely suppressed .

Again this is absolutely the case with further calls to curb already curbed union power whenever there is a strike.

11. Disdain for Intellectuals and the Arts
Fascist nations tend to promote and tolerate open hostility to higher education, and academia. It is not uncommon for professors and other academics to be censored or even arrested. Free expression in the arts is openly attacked, and governments often refuse to fund the arts.

Michael Gove and his disdain for experts is obvious proof but disdain for experts is now a national obsession.

12. Obsession with Crime and Punishment
Under fascist regimes, the police are given almost limitless power to enforce laws. The people are often willing to overlook police abuses and even forego civil liberties in the name of patriotism. There is often a national police force with virtually unlimited power in fascist nations.

Not really. We don't have a national and oppressive police force but I do think there is a steady erosion of civil liberties though this is related more to things like wanting to withdraw from the ECHR and the introduction of the snoopers charter mentioned previously.


13. Rampant Cronyism and Corruption
Fascist regimes almost always are governed by groups of friends and associates who appoint each other to government positions and use governmental power and authority to protect their friends from accountability. It is not uncommon in fascist regimes for national resources and even treasures to be appropriated or even outright stolen by government leaders.

Look how many MP's (across all parties) have stakes in private health companies. I am sure others can think of other examples.

14. Fraudulent Elections
Sometimes elections in fascist nations are a complete sham. Other times elections are manipulated by smear campaigns against or even assassination of opposition candidates, use of legislation to control voting numbers or political district boundaries, and manipulation of the media. Fascist nations also typically use their judiciaries to manipulate or control elections.

We are heading there rapidly. An MP assassinated in the Brexit campaign. Smear campaigns are the norm now. Never mind the almost daily attacks on Corbyn, remember the outrageous accusations regarding Miliband's Dad? Boundary changes, the way people are being disenfranchised and not included in the electoral register (which affects the boundaries) and English Votes for English laws are prime examples of why this is a "yes" for me.

So while we don't tick all the boxes fully, we tick far too many for comfort. Mind you if you do the same exercise for the USA, the results are even worse!

[SJ]

Simple answer "No "
Think your loosing it Dave.
Pure unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense. I know the results of the Referendum upset you Dave

Think Patriotism not Facism Dave. They've not synonyms nor synonymous but of course you know that?
Relax,everything will be ok. Think positive. Your a good bloke and I like and respect you just chill out mate

[DaveO]

Simple answer "No "
Think your loosing it Dave.
Pure unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense. I know the results of the Referendum upset you Dave

Think Patriotism not Facism Dave. They've not synonyms nor synonymous but of course you know that?
Relax,everything will be ok. Think positive. Your a good bloke and I like and respect you just chill out mate

The simple answer of "no" without a counter argument doesn't cut it.

Disrespect for the judiciary following the initial ruling v A50 and calls for them to be subservient to parliament is exactly the sort of stuff that went on in Nazi Germany in the 1930's. Tomorrow should be interesting if the government lose the appeal.

Gove's anti-intellectualist bandwagon (and his attempts to rewrite history) are not figments of my imagination. Again similar to what happened in the 30's.

Cubing Union power that is already weak, same again.

The demonising of immigrants. You do know since the vote to leave the EU, there have been incidents where Eu nationals have had human excrement shoved through their letter boxes? Oswald Mosley would be proud. And of course the EU itself has been the biggest scapegoats going for decades.

And of course May has always been obsessed with national security. The snoopers charter is also not a figment of my imagination.

If you are relaxed about all this, I can only assume you don't want to know about it. A lot of German people in the 1930's brushed things like this under the carpet.

[morley pie eater]

Dave, I certainly agree that we're moving in that direction, and more so than at any time I've been alive.

I didn't vote at the last election as I've reached a point of despair with politicians AND a large chunk of the electorate.

The modern form of Bread and Circuses is called celebrity culture. A huge proportion of the country, especially those under 45 say, encouraged by the media, are more bothered about Kim Kardashian (whover she is), Game of Thrones or X Factor than things that actually affect their lives.

See https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... kardashian

[i'm spartacus]

There is no disrespect of the judiciary other than in your mind.

Challenging decisions is an important part of our judicial process and more importantly here, it is constitutionally important and perfectly legitimate that the highest court in the land rules upon it. Conversely, had the initial judgment gone the other way, I would have fully expected Gina Miller to have appealed it. I personally thought the initial court judgment was the wrong decision. Tomorrow we will find out one way or the other

There were EU and other immigrants who suffered discrimination before the Brexit vote and there are counter arguments which say that the alleged increase can be put down to increased reporting, or incorrectly presented figures.

Then of course there is your presentation on the indicators of fascism written by 'Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt who recently wrote an article about fascism'
The main problem with that is that he himself says “For your information I never made a claim that I was a “Dr.” Someone on the internet made that assumption when they passed on the article. I am a retired businessman with a life long interest in history and current events"

So the article is an unqualified opinion which you happen to agree with. It isn't actually an authorative academic work worthy of a reasoned response much beyond the response it got, which was 'pure unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense'

[Wandering Warrior]

Interesting stuff of which I can see certain aspects of these occurring now. As has been stated folk will put the blinkers on for various situations as they choose.
The big one for me is Gove's experts comment and folk swallowed it nicely. As I have said before on here you'd want an expert if you were ill!
But hey, the working man is and always has been his own worst enemy and as a whole is too dumb to see it.
An early comment in my working life that backed the above was one gentleman said he should vote Tory cos he's bought his council house he was living in!! Classic.

[Caboosegg]

although i don't think we are a Fascist state this in the news amuses me:


"She does not think she needs to ask the rest of Parliament for permission to do this because the UK government has something called 'prerogative powers'.

This is an old type of power from when kings and queens could basically do what they wanted."

the rulings today, but i find it funny that May is basically trying to do a dictatorial act to avoid it going to a commons vote... isnt that why people voted leave? they were fed up of unelected officials making decisions without our parliament having a say?

[Wiganer Ted]

I don't think we are heading towards a fascist state.

What we are IMO and was termed by Lord Hailsham/Quentin Hogg is an elective dictatorship. Once a party has a Commons majority, especially a substantial one they are untouchable. They can legislate what they want and how they want. There is the House of Lords to stall matters but they can't stop a determined Gov't.

IMO we need and always have needed a second democratically elected House where the Gov't has to get approval from both Houses to enact a Bill.

My preference would be the Commons be 325 MP's elected by first past the post as now. The second House would be 325 MP'selected on a PR basis. That way both Houses would look different in the make up are the respective parties.
I would abolish the House of Lords.

This would have made a massive difference over the years to Gov'ts of all parties and I believe with greater scrutiny we would have better Government and betters laws.

[fozzieskem]

I'm not sure we are a facist state just yet,but the alarming lurch towards the more extreme right wing is a worry,I hit 51 this year and i can't recall a time such as this i look at the news and i dont recognise my country at times

[SJ]

There is no disrespect of the judiciary other than in your mind.

Challenging decisions is an important part of our judicial process and more importantly here, it is constitutionally important and perfectly legitimate that the highest court in the land rules upon it. Conversely, had the initial judgment gone the other way, I would have fully expected Gina Miller to have appealed it. I personally thought the initial court judgment was the wrong decision. Tomorrow we will find out one way or the other

There were EU and other immigrants who suffered discrimination before the Brexit vote and there are counter arguments which say that the alleged increase can be put down to increased reporting, or incorrectly presented figures.

Then of course there is your presentation on the indicators of fascism written by 'Political scientist Dr. Lawrence Britt who recently wrote an article about fascism'
The main problem with that is that he himself says “For your information I never made a claim that I was a “Dr.” Someone on the internet made that assumption when they passed on the article. I am a retired businessman with a life long interest in history and current events"

So the article is an unqualified opinion which you happen to agree with. It isn't actually an authorative academic work worthy of a reasoned response much beyond the response it got, which was 'pure unadulterated hyperbolic nonsense'

So well put S. Dave does tend to overstate his case. Pity it wasn't original thinking Straight from wkopedia I believe. ????