Another Labour front bencher - clueless. Do you REALLY want these people in power?

[ian b]

Theyre all as bad as each other.None of their figures ever add up. They basically blame everyone for their own short comings and total failure to do a good job. The biggest percentage of them dont give a toss about the general population and are in it for their own gains. Labour got every student in the country near enough to vote for them on another false promise of free tuition fees which is never going to happen and it pisses me off when they expect us to swallow their bullshit all the time like May constantly banging on about getting immigration down to tens of thousands. THEY ALL LIE

[DaveO]

Look, let's get to the nub of the matter, anyone who votes Tory is in favour of attacks on the poor, disadvantaged and disabled.

The facts don't lie and so yes, I am referring to you Wintergreen, SJ and Wormburner because unless you are thick or deliberately ignoring the reality, that is what you will be voting for if you vote Tory.

Not some mythical post-Brexit economic miracle inspired by free market laissez-faire bunkum but continued and deep cuts in services and benefits that the poor and disabled people rely on.

As the parent of an Autistic son I know exactly what is going on. If me and my wife dropped dead tomorrow the kind of social care that would have looked after our son have simply vanished since 2010. Gone. You probably have no reason to know this but in typically Tory fashion have not bothered to find out either. It seems to me you view the world from your own standpoint and think if you are OK everyone else must be able to be. It's not like that and since 2010 this country has, collectively, decided to shred the support it used to readily give in favour of tax cuts claiming the world's 7th largest economy can't afford to provide this. It's bullshit. It can but chooses not to.

All we ever get is we spent more than the last lot but where is this money going and why are services being cut if they are? In Chester the entire S.E.N team is being decimated. That is the sort of reality we have in this country. We were actually lucky. Our son is old enough to have had a Special Educational needs Statement which imposed a legal obligation on the council to meet his needs. They don't exist anymore. Now you have an Education and Health Care plan but they aren't worth the paper they are written on as they are not legally binding and if it says your son/daughter needs speech and language therapy for example, if that doesn't exist because it's been cut (as it has here) then you don't get it! Who made this change? Why the Tories of course.

This is the sort of reality of Tory Britain for those who don't fit into the fit, healthy, home owning middle class stereotype.

Dave o respect for a true reflection on where the tories have taken away both care for disabled and mentally ill patients the trust i workd for closed there units and tried to put patients in places that where not equipped to deal with there needs this had knock on affects to the ae department when patients with special needs turned up instead of going through hospital internal system outside assessment was required in most cases taking over 24 hours for a primary assessment this tying up valued ae time and space. So do understand your frustration.I have no problem in stating why political views are in the labour camp having seen the best and most envied health care system in the world brought to it's knees and after 24 years of giving my all to this system believing it would return to how it was once the envy most nations.they have broken my belief that this will happen so much so that after all this time i gave up on the job I loved.the only down i can pick on your thread is please don't call people thick for having a different view you in the past have called me thick willkeep drilling this point to all posters who keep belittling anyone withdifferent veiwe you as a mod should at least practice what you preach

Passions run high sometimes and while I have a reason to be well informed about the issues I highlighted in my quote above I don't think there is any excuse to base an argument on any subject on quotes from the Dail Mail or Daily Express as someone on this site is infamous for. Even if they are doing it as a wind up it's lowering the debate to a low level and so I tend to react negatively to that.

I do tend to post on here as if I have known everybody for 30 years. We have a group of friends none of whom live local who we go away with every year at New Year. We have done this for 27 years, before kids and after kids, and I guarantee I will use some choice language in the inevitable late night beer fuelled debates. We are all friends the day after. It's much easier to take things out of context in text as opposed to speech. Perhaps I should say are you bonkers rather than thick in the future if you get my drift?

[Wiganer Ted]

The title about a Labour front bencher being clueless has been overtaken by events.
The primary clueless front bencher is Theresa May!
Called a GE to increase her majority substantially then loses it.
One of the biggest political misjudgments of post war politics.
The party of Government is in disarray and none of us know what's going to happen next.
May has lost her credibility in the UK and what the EU think now would be well worth knowing. Is May going to lead the UK negotiations? Will she be PM in 2 weeks?
The Scottish Tory leader is saying she'll stop any "hard Brexit"
The whole Brexit business is on an edge.
What we all know is that in the election the demographics changed forever. Later this week we'll know how many 18-34 year old voted
There is legislation in place whereby the Commons and Lords have to approve the final Brexit deal. If there is not a Tory majority in the Commons that deal will be defeated.
My bet is that there will be another in/out referendum.
The last referendum had a majority of under 1.27m to leave.
With over 300,000 over 65 leave voters dying each year that 1.27 will be blown out of the water by the new U35s who are registered to vote and have now started to vote in their millions.
First things first, how long will May last?

[ian b]

May shouldnt last in my opinion and should have been fired as home secretary because of her inability to do the job properly. If there is another referendum it would be one almighty smack in the face for democracy

[DaveO]

If there is another referendum it would be one almighty smack in the face for democracy

We have had three referendums on the EU, which one of them wasn't a "smack in the face of democracy"? The only one you agreed with the result of?

[jaws1]

If there is another referendum it would be one almighty smack in the face for democracy

We have had three referendums on the EU, which one of them wasn't a "smack in the face of democracy"? The only one you agreed with the result of?

Would the EU want us back in we have been a thorn in their side not using the EURO and other things .Is article 50 reversible as we shown intention for coming out. Another referendum would be a massive remain to stay in the EU the young voters who could not be bothered to vote in Ref but turned out massively for GE.

[thegimble]

If there is another referendum it would be one almighty smack in the face for democracy

We have had three referendums on the EU, which one of them wasn't a "smack in the face of democracy"? The only one you agreed with the result of?

The question you replied to DaveO is the one that make me laugh the most.

Its very similar in manner to the gun lobby in the USA saying you can not amend the constitution on gun control its Unconstitutional.

Which is really ironic since the law enabling gun carry in the US is the 2nd AMENDEMENT to the constitution.

As you say people wants nothing to be allowed to change once they get the vote they want or the decision. It reminds me in Football all the managers want all decisions correct whilst what they really want is the decision to go their way.

[pedro]

If there is another referendum it would be one almighty smack in the face for democracy

We have had three referendums on the EU, which one of them wasn't a "smack in the face of democracy"? The only one you agreed with the result of?

when?

[Wiganer Ted]

The final Brexit deal has to go before Parliament.
Surely they will have to have a 2nd referendum as going with a binding decision without consulting voters would be political suicide at the next GE.
A50 is reversible.
With only a referendum majority of under 1.27m this will disappear given the millions of U35s who voted in this GE. We will know exactly how many in the next few days.

[fozzieskem]

I would have thought given no majority there would have to be another referendum on the treaty,would think that at the very least is a must as the clueless botcher May was looking for a mandate to carry it through.

I suspect if its not forthcoming you'll see the youngsters getting themseleves more motivated than they are at the moment,and no doubt telling us about it on twitter etc.