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ian b wrote:

morley pie eater wrote:

ian b wrote:Religion is the reason why most conflicts start or exist, how sad

Sorry, Ian, but I don't think there's any evidence to back up your statement. Indian Mutiny, Boer War, WWI, WWII, Korean War, Vietnam, Gulf War??

From memory, the greatest loss of life in 20th century was (in no particular order) Chairman Mao's Great Leap Forward, two World Wars, Stalin/Soviet Union (?). The Balkans conflict certainly involved religion, as did Iran-Iraq to a limited extent (though both were majority Shia countries and Saddam's role in Iraq was to suppress religion if anything).

I'd be interested in any facts to back up this common assertion. And even if it were true that most wars were fought "in the name of religion", closer examination would show that invariably religion is a pretext or a rallying call to justify other reasons - take Ireland for example.

a lot of conflicts are sectarian and religion often comes in to it even if it is used as front or excuse to justify mass murder. I agree with a lot of what you say but when you see ethnic cleansing on the scales we have in the past and present the religion of one section of the people is often brought up. The Balkans was a great example.I believe the Ireland conflict was originally over religion but again i agree it was sadly used as an excuse in later years. Iam in no way a religious person but i don't see the sense in killing because you disagree with how they lead their own lives

I agree. As a Christian, I see the contradiction in "Christians" (followers of Jesus Christ) going to war when Jesus said "Love your enemy, pray for those who abuse you."

I guess many peace-loving Muslims feel the same about the terrorists/suicide bombers.

morley pie eater wrote: I guess many peace-loving Muslims feel the same about the terrorists/suicide bombers.

They probably think, well that ups the chances of a fire-bombing at our local mosque.

Which, of course, suits the jihadists very well.

I don't think you should blame the religion, but you cannot unfortunately ignore it. ISIS is undoubtedly Islamic albeit of an ultra conservative and totally unreformed type, something akin to Torquemada's Dominicanism.
Whilst ISIS will almost certainly be defeated militarily, the mindset will remain and only the progressive and reforming (there are even gay imans in the west) wing of Islam will defeat that.
Surely therefore it's far more logical to support the reformers than to throw a blanket over an entire religion and blindly blame everyone for the actions of a few.

Peter252 wrote:I don't think you should blame the religion, but you cannot unfortunately ignore it. ISIS is undoubtedly Islamic albeit of an ultra conservative and totally unreformed type, something akin to Torquemada's Dominicanism.
Whilst ISIS will almost certainly be defeated militarily, the mindset will remain and only the progressive and reforming (there are even gay imans in the west) wing of Islam will defeat that.
Surely therefore it's far more logical to support the reformers than to throw a blanket over an entire religion and blindly blame everyone for the actions of a few.

You're right, please read this:

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/man ... 54301.html

Patrick Cockburn is a highly-respected journalist with nearly 30 years experience of the Middle East. He "tells it like it is". Every UK and US government sucks up to the Saudis - the root cause of all this. "Go figure" as the Yanks say.

Also check out Robert Fisk.

Peter252 wrote:I don't think you should blame the religion, but you cannot unfortunately ignore it. ISIS is undoubtedly Islamic albeit of an ultra conservative and totally unreformed type, something akin to Torquemada's Dominicanism.
Whilst ISIS 3are even gay imans in the west) wing of Islam will defeat that.
Surely therefore it's far more logical to support the reformers than to throw a blanket over an entire religion and blindly blame everyone for the actions of a few.

Great post.

Blaming religion is way too simple a solution. There is a lot more going on here than that. Its interesting that most of the wars now happen in the middle east where they have resources our leaders want.

Its sickness we remove Saddam, Gaddafi attempt to do the same in Syria just because the leaders will buy and trade with other nations and turn their backs on us. Problem is we allow Saudi Arabia to keep going who's Wahhabism is the basis of the ISIS group. Yet we trade with them sell weapons to them and allow them to run a country just as barbaric as the 3 I mention. There is also evidence that money from SA was used to fund the 9/11 disaster. Yet whilst they get away with it Iran is pillared at every turn at the behest of the Saudi's.

And still ISIS functions around the world. As you say it will be defeated but problem is just as they were on the verge on defeat in Syria a supposed chemical attack was used by governments forces. Which was accused inside 24 hours without any evidence.

Something stinks in all this something is very wrong at what we have done to the middle east and are doing by supporting the biggest supporter of terrorism in the world Saudi Arabia.

But that does not in anyway justify what took place in Manchester. That was a barbaric act and if anyone who gets jailed for aiding I hope its life and it means life with no parole and solitary confinement in a 6 foot sell and have to eat only pork.

As you say we should work with the reformers but who most stable nations are now in complete disarray. Who do we look too as the silence from the middle east has been shocking at all the murders in the world. There is no solution to it unless we pull out completely and allow Saudi Arabia to be destroyed by its enemies. We are propping the most barbaric country in the World who in turn has funded most terrorism in the world.

But as long as SA buys and trades with us Mrs May and Corbyn will not give a monkeys about people dying whilst their friends can profit.

and for what its worth Blair should take a long hard look at himself as not only did he lie through his arse so himself and his Boyfriend Bush could start an illegal conflict in Iraq and whilst you are there you may as well change the heart and minds in Afghan !!! he then opens the flood gates and lets thousands of pissed off muslims in. The man is a grub

ian b wrote:and for what its worth Blair should take a long hard look at himself as not only did he lie through his arse so himself and his Boyfriend Bush could start an illegal conflict in Iraq and whilst you are there you may as well change the heart and minds in Afghan !!! he then opens the flood gates and lets thousands of pissed off muslims in. The man is a grub

And we pay for his security still. All of those leaders who carried the lie should be in jail. And not here no in Iraq.

thegimble wrote:

ian b wrote:and for what its worth Blair should take a long hard look at himself as not only did he lie through his arse so himself and his Boyfriend Bush could start an illegal conflict in Iraq and whilst you are there you may as well change the heart and minds in Afghan !!! he then opens the flood gates and lets thousands of pissed off muslims in. The man is a grub

And we pay for his security still. All of those leaders who carried the lie should be in jail. And not here no in Iraq.

and he got a job as peace envoy to the middle east !!!! thats like giving Rolf Harris a job in a nursery. The whole system is corrupt and the like of us pay the price for their greed

ian b wrote:

thegimble wrote:

ian b wrote:and for what its worth Blair should take a long hard look at himself as not only did he lie through his arse so himself and his Boyfriend Bush could start an illegal conflict in Iraq and whilst you are there you may as well change the heart and minds in Afghan !!! he then opens the flood gates and lets thousands of pissed off muslims in. The man is a grub

And we pay for his security still. All of those leaders who carried the lie should be in jail. And not here no in Iraq.

and he got a job as peace envoy to the middle east !!!! thats like giving Rolf Harris a job in a nursery. The whole system is corrupt and the like of us pay the price for their greed

Or like letting me be in charge of a Pie shop