Substitutions and timing

[No straw damn us]

Last night Leeds subbed 1st prop on 19 minutes, 2nd on 30 minutes.

Wire subbed 1st prop on 20 minutes 2nd on 30 minutes. I didn't include the Bryson interchange as he came back on after his head test so it didn't count as a substitution.

[First Try Tickle]

Last night Leeds subbed 1st prop on 19 minutes, 2nd on 30 minutes.

Wire subbed 1st prop on 20 minutes 2nd on 30 minutes. I didn't include the Bryson interchange as he came back on after his head test so it didn't count as a substitution.

I wonder if Hill's wife timed going into labour with when the prop interchange was due to take place.

[the pieman]

If today's players are supposedly super fit and more athletic compared to players from the past then why are there so many substitutions in today's games, the game in the past was more intense and enjoyable than the supposed superior Super League that we have to put up with today

I think it's about different types of fitness, Meds. If you train a big man for stamina, he can last 80 minutes. But he can't also be as dynamic. Mo Farrah and Usain Bolt have different types of training.

Props of the past had to last 80 mins. (In the 1965 cup final, we had 2 subs and didn't use either, iirc.)

It's knowing the subs are there that allows Bitcon to plan their training schedule to maximise impact in 20 minute spells.

Incidentally, what's often missed in these discussions is that a major consideration is not which props are best in a particular game, but keeping the best props fresh for the end-of-season run-in.

A few years ago, Wane said that Jordan James was "doing a job" for him. That job involved playing 15 or 20 minutes most matches, then dropping out towards the end of the season. We may have done better in individual games by not playing JJ, but would probably not have got to the GF, as the main props would have been jaded later in the year.

I'd go so far as to suggest that our GFs won under Wane were more because we had the freshest props at the end of season than because we had the best team. Last year's injuries prevented us repeating that, with FPN, for example, playing every game.

some good points made in here

my exception would be this part

"It's knowing the subs are there that allows Bitcon to plan their training schedule to maximise impact in 20 minute spells."

when was the last time that any of our props made an impact on a game


In all seriousness though - i personally dont believe our props do enough especially when it comes to making the hard yards. when they do, at times (even last year) we were a different team. When we won the GF a couple of seasons ago, they stood up at the back end of the season and look what happened, so i do also believe that the rotation / lack of intensity during the regular season is part of the master plan and trying to keep the players fresh for the big games at the end of the season

[adiddy]

Well FPN came on tonight spot on 20mins!!!!




Matt

[No straw damn us]

Saints took Amor off on 20 minutes - replaced with LMS and then on
30 mins brought Walmsley on.

[markill]

In our game, the first half subs were:
19' Salford - Griffin for Tasi
20' Wigan - FPN for Clubb
21' Salford - Littlejohn for Wood & Burgess for Mossop
23' Wigan - Tautai for Flower
26' Wigan - Isa for Sutton & Escare for Leuluai
30' Salford - Kopczak for McCarthy

In the other games so far this week:
Wire v Leeds
14' Wire - Westwood for Goodwin (injury forced but as he wasn't back on in 15 mins it counted)
20' Wire - Philbin for Hill
25' Leeds - Cuthbertson for Delaney
27' Wire - Goodwin for BMM
31' Leeds - Peteru for Singleton & Wire - Hill for Cooper
38' Leeds - Dwyer for Parcell

Hull v Hudds
22' Hull - Bowden for Paea
23' Hudds - Ikahihifo for Walne & Clough for Ta'ai
27' Hull - Matongo for Minichiello & Abdull for Taylor
28' Hudds - Leeming for O'Brien & Smith for Hinchcliffe
35' Hudds - Ta'ai for Lawrence

Saints v Cas
7' Cas - Millington for Green
17' Saints - LMS for Amor
19' Cas - JSL for Massey & Milner for Moors
20' Saints - Walmsley for Thompson
21' Cas - Cook for Millington
30' Saints - Knowles for Wilkin
37' Saints - Thompson for Walmsley

KR v Wakey
20' KR - Kavanagh for Jewitt
25' KR - Lunt for Lee
27' Wakey - Hirst for England
30' Wakey - Pauli for Fifita & KR - Masoe for Mulhern

You can get this from the match centre in Our League app, so someone else can do it next time. Week 1 alone won't show much, but it does show Wigan were not alone in making subs on/around 20 minutes and were no more or less likely to make wholesale changes at that time than anyone else.

[TrueBlueWarrior]

Much of a muchness for me!!

[No straw damn us]

In our game, the first half subs were:
19' Salford - Griffin for Tasi
20' Wigan - FPN for Clubb
21' Salford - Littlejohn for Wood & Burgess for Mossop
23' Wigan - Tautai for Flower
26' Wigan - Isa for Sutton & Escare for Leuluai
30' Salford - Kopczak for McCarthy

In the other games so far this week:
Wire v Leeds
14' Wire - Westwood for Goodwin (injury forced but as he wasn't back on in 15 mins it counted)
20' Wire - Philbin for Hill
25' Leeds - Cuthbertson for Delaney
27' Wire - Goodwin for BMM
31' Leeds - Peteru for Singleton & Wire - Hill for Cooper
38' Leeds - Dwyer for Parcell

Hull v Hudds
22' Hull - Bowden for Paea
23' Hudds - Ikahihifo for Walne & Clough for Ta'ai
27' Hull - Matongo for Minichiello & Abdull for Taylor
28' Hudds - Leeming for O'Brien & Smith for Hinchcliffe
35' Hudds - Ta'ai for Lawrence

Saints v Cas
7' Cas - Millington for Green
17' Saints - LMS for Amor
19' Cas - JSL for Massey & Milner for Moors
20' Saints - Walmsley for Thompson
21' Cas - Cook for Millington
30' Saints - Knowles for Wilkin
37' Saints - Thompson for Walmsley

KR v Wakey
20' KR - Kavanagh for Jewitt
25' KR - Lunt for Lee
27' Wakey - Hirst for England
30' Wakey - Pauli for Fifita & KR - Masoe for Mulhern

You can get this from the match centre in Our League app, so someone else can do it next time. Week 1 alone won't show much, but it does show Wigan were not alone in making subs on/around 20 minutes and were no more or less likely to make wholesale changes at that time than anyone else.

Thanks for that link to the App, some good stuff on there.

[morley pie eater]

Thanks, Mark. This is very informative.

Though only 1 week's data, it's pretty clear that, barring injuries or wives going into labour, pretty much every coach will sub props after 20-25 mins.

Now what? This arose because of accusations that SW, or pon yed to his friends, blindly follows a plan for substitutions unlike other, more-enlightened coaches.

But will the data, even if the above pattern is confirmed for all teams throughout the season, convince the accusers?

I'd suggest not. Previous generations recognised this with these old adages:

"Don't let the facts spoil a good argument."
"A man convinced against his will, is of the same opinion still."
"Any stick to beat a dog."
"You can't educate pork."

[Josie's friend]

Imo rotating props to keep the intensity of the attack/defence is a good strategy, if your pool of props is poor then it just highlights an issue.
The issue is our props not when they get switched.