Fixes for the team

Discuss all things Wigan Warriors. Comments and opinions on all aspects of the club's performance are welcome.
DaveO
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by DaveO »

morley pie eater wrote:1) I don't see any problem within reason to picking who you think are your best players and fitting them in.

2) Lockers is a middle. Playing prop or 13 is irrelevant in this context, just as split halves makes comments about who's a 6 or a 7 irrelevant.

3) My guess is that Tommy to 9, but not for 80 mins, was the reasoning behind the 'switcheroo'. You then either play Powell off the bench or come up with an alternative.

Given a similar problem over Morgan and Sam T - bingo...you have the switcheroo! (I'm neither supporting it or criticising it here, just trying to explain how it came about in a more reasonable way than the love-child theory.)

4) I'm also convinced that the new thinking this season primarily originates with Mark Bitcon, and it's about approaching the game in 2 phases. Less points are scored in the 1st half of most games. More in 2nd half as fatigue sets in. Develop a strategy to tire the opposition and preserve your own side's energy.

I'm not claiming to understand all (or many) of the details, but I'm absolutely convinced there's something in this beyond the usual talk of "fuel in the tank". It's fundamental to Wigan's approach as opposed to an afterthought or add-on that is normally the case.
1. Is stupid. It means playing players out of position and why is that not a problem? No one likes Bateman at centre apparently. Clearly you can play some players in other positions but it doesn't mean its the best use of the players.

2. Saying it's irrelevant where Lockers plays because he is a "middle" is I am sure how Wane would justify it. It does however completely ignore the fact he offers so much more to the team as a loose forward (in his correct position which is an example of what I said above in 1 about this notion of it not mattering being stupid).

As to it being irrelevant who is 6 or 7 with split halves it does not follow that because that may be true it's irrelevant where other players play.

As to us playing split halves anyway that requires both of them to be equally good and possessing the full set of skills expected of a half back. We don't have that now any more than we had when Smith was here yet were persit with this formation. Powell is (as Smith was) little threat and so Williams is still expected to be the key player and the opposition know this.

3) So why given MM was not an 80 minute player did we not do the "switcheroo" before now? I can't remember the last time we had and 80 minute hooker so the only reason the "switcheroo" is necessary is because Wane gave Powell the 7 shirt instead of operating him as interchange hooker. I don't care why he did it "love child" or not. The fact he did it is why he does the "switcheroo". The problem is of his own making.

I am convinced the juggling around of players with things Lockers at prop and the switcheroo is Wane trying to cram the players he wants in the side anywhere he can to the extent he is prepared to make substitutions like the switcheroo to do this.

4. If we were keeping sides to zero or one try in the first half I might believe you. At Cats we just played very poorly in the first half. It cannot be a strategy to play poorly that involves giving a side a 15 points start in a game. Against Saints we were 12-2 down at half time and the result was as much to do with that slow start as anything.

In fact the idea we approach the game in two phases hoping to keep the score down so we can score when they tire is just unrealistic and far too risky. It means the opposition are always in touch and/or it's Wigan likely to be chasing the game. If they don't tire or are good enough as Saints were to ultimately protect their first half lead, we lose.

The fitness based come back only works against poor sides like HKR and Cats. It's a get out of jail card not a tactic.

moto748
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by moto748 »

I remarked upthread that Leeds similarly seem to have won a few games in the last 20 minutes lately, often after being behind, and wondered if the same kind of tactic was being employed there. But as I said, either way, we can't afford to give good sides like Leeds and Cas a head start. I agree that Cats are probably the only club in SL who might have collapsed from a 21 point lead.

Just on the halves: quality halves are like hen's teeth (well, ones we could realistically attract and afford, anyway). Do you think there are any SL sides who at present have halves where "both of them to be equally good and possessing the full set of skills expected of a half back", as you say?
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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by Wigan_forever1985 »

moto748 wrote:I remarked upthread that Leeds similarly seem to have won a few games in the last 20 minutes lately, often after being behind, and wondered if the same kind of tactic was being employed there. But as I said, either way, we can't afford to give good sides like Leeds and Cas a head start. I agree that Cats are probably the only club in SL who might have collapsed from a 21 point lead.

Just on the halves: quality halves are like hen's teeth (well, ones we could realistically attract and afford, anyway). Do you think there are any SL sides who at present have halves where "both of them to be equally good and possessing the full set of skills expected of a half back", as you say?
I think what DaveO is getting at is that we play split halves which ideally would have 2 players of equal footing.

Sam Powell clearly has a complete free ride in the team for whatever reason and it isnt talent, that is never a good thing for a team to have and its one of the first things Madge changed when he took over from Noble

The league is our saving grace right now, the quality of the league is i would say an all time low
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure
moto748
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by moto748 »

Sometimes posting here can be so dispiriting!

If the standard is so poor and the rugby on offer such rubbish, why bother watching?

But of course, twenty years ago the rugby was better, the summers were hotter, there were more good pubs to drink in; the golden era is always twenty years in the past, isn't it? And of course, twenty years ago, they were saying exactly the same thing! And will be in another twenty years.
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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by Wigan_forever1985 »

moto748 wrote:Sometimes posting here can be so dispiriting!

If the standard is so poor and the rugby on offer such rubbish, why bother watching?

But of course, twenty years ago the rugby was better, the summers were hotter, there were more good pubs to drink in; the golden era is always twenty years in the past, isn't it? And of course, twenty years ago, they were saying exactly the same thing! And will be in another twenty years.
Im not talking about 20 years ago though im talking in the last 5-10 years. Ok put it this way we are 2nd in the league now so we are doing well this season, but lets compare our squad now to the squad of 2011;

1 Sam Tomkins - Sam Tomkins - 2011 tomkins was better

2 Darrell Goulding - Davies/Marshall - Say maybe equal on this Goulding was a better centre than he was winger

3 Martin Gleeson - Dan Sarginson - Not even on the same scale! Gleeson was class

4 George Carmont - Gildart - Carmont was the finished article much better, gilder could be that level but has a lot to learn between then and now

5 Pat Richards - Budgie - Same as above, but ill be generous and play this even

6 Brett Finch - George Williams - not a contest Finch miles in front
7 Thomas Leuluai - Powell - Tommy better even though he wasn't great @ 7 (deacon played there more and he was better than powell too)

8 Stuart Fielden - Clubb - Feilden was a top forward
9 Michael McIlorum - Tommy - Ill give this one even
10 Jeff Lima - Flower - Lima Better
11 Harrison Hansen - Tomkins/Isa - hansen better
12 Ryan Hoffman - Farrell - ill give even
13 Sean O'Loughlin (c) - Lockers even

The best i can find is evens for todays team, and there are at least 8 of the 13 positions we have players who aren't as good in them. Thats a 61% dip in quality from a "top" team. You can't do that and it not translate onto the pitch

Its not just us

Ward is not kevin sinfield
Myler is Not Peak power Maguire

It gets even worse if you look further back - look at the 2006 saints team absolutely brimming with talent, not potential, or over the hill - actually here and now class players
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure
pedro
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by pedro »

fixes are play everyone in their positions, the best available, them who miss out keep them on their toes as its a squad game, not hard really we just seem to make it hard.
ian.birchall
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by ian.birchall »

DaveO would like to see Farrell Isa and Bateman in the second rows in the pack.
That would give us 3 of the smallest back row forwards in the league all playing together and we would just go backwards against any of the big packs.
So its a NO from me.
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moto748
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by moto748 »

Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:
Im not talking about 20 years ago though...
Well, you've picked your year to suit your argument!

I was simply making the general point that it is human nature to always say everything was better in the past. But at this mythical point in the past, people were saying exactly the same thing. It's a bit like "Young people today..." It's human nature, but it doesn't make for much of a convincing argument.

I'm continuously hearing comments like "the standard of SL is at an all-time low" and "we're falling further and further behind the Aussies". Well, I'm not saying that the money gap between us and the Aussies isn't getting bigger; it is. And that is a worry. But just to point out, even in the "good old days", they nearly always used to beat us! If we were as bad as many make out, the Aussies would be putting 60-80 points on us every time nowadays. But they aren't.

In the same way, the fact that Luke Gale isn't as good as Cooper Cronk doesn't make him rubbish. Jeez, Blues fans slag off Mitchell Pearce because he hasn't been able to single-handedly overturn an all-conquering Queensland side. Yet to any neutral observer, Gale is a perfectly decent half (and probably still the one in SL with the best all-round game), and Pearce is a very good one.
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Wigan_forever1985
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by Wigan_forever1985 »

moto748 wrote:
Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:
Im not talking about 20 years ago though...
Well, you've picked your year to suit your argument!

I was simply making the general point that it is human nature to always say everything was better in the past. But at this mythical point in the past, people were saying exactly the same thing. It's a bit like "Young people today..." It's human nature, but it doesn't make for much of a convincing argument.

I'm continuously hearing comments like "the standard of SL is at an all-time low" and "we're falling further and further behind the Aussies". Well, I'm not saying that the money gap between us and the Aussies isn't getting bigger; it is. And that is a worry. But just to point out, even in the "good old days", they nearly always used to beat us! If we were as bad as many make out, the Aussies would be putting 60-80 points on us every time nowadays. But they aren't.

In the same way, the fact that Luke Gale isn't as good as Cooper Cronk doesn't make him rubbish. Jeez, Blues fans slag off Mitchell Pearce because he hasn't been able to single-handedly overturn an all-conquering Queensland side. Yet to any neutral observer, Gale is a perfectly decent half (and probably still the one in SL with the best all-round game), and Pearce is a very good one.
Youre missing my point though, the superleague is reducing in quality - thats not opinion thats pretty much fact look at the team i put up we had in 2011

We had a fullback who was about twice as good as he is now

we had two absolute class centres we dont even have 1 now (gildart has the "potential" but isnt there yet)

we had a world class half back we dont now (see gildart copy/paste williams)

look at the pack

Hoffman
Tomkins (the better version)
Hock
Hansen
Coley
Lima
Feilden
Prescott

im not comparing the players now to then as of such im comparing their standard. Gleeson and Carmont were absolute class centres both of them - have we got 2 class centres now, no we dont!.

So if the standard of our team has dropped (and by a fair way) and we are still towards the top of that shows you the league standard is worse than it was before.

Like i say its not just our team either its other teams too Leeds arent the same team either.

Lenox Lewis put something on his twitter the other day which rings very true for rugby league
When mediocre becomes the accepted standard because excellence is too much to ask for, expect less than than mediocre results because, at some point, even mediocre will become too much to ask for! - Lennoxism
Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate. Our deepest fear is that we are powerful beyond measure
moto748
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Re: Fixes for the team

Post by moto748 »

Statements that one player is better than another are by definition opinions. They may be widely held opinions, but they *are* opinions nevertheless, not facts.

I might score your two cherry-picked sides slightly differently, but would tend to agree that the earlier team looks better.

But, there are other factors at play here. To what extent have tactics in the game changed since then. Would that earlier, 'better' team be as successful in the modern game? We don't know for sure.

What I do believe is the continually heard whining about a massive decrease in the standard of the game is:

a) opinion

b) in my view, over-stated.

As I said in my original post, if we were declining that fast, the Aussies would be putting 60-80 points on us by now.
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