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josie andrews wrote:

Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:I find it disheartening how many people feel like this is "a bit of nothing". Might be a reflection of modern society but i find this video utterly abhorrent. Joel is a big fella and for him to push/threaten and abuse a female member of staff who was simply asking him to leave due to intoxicated nature cant be anything than a sackable offence to someone earning probably 7-10 times the average wage.

If this was me i would expect to be sacked by my employer. The "he's just a bit drunk" argument doesnt cut it

if this standard of behaviour is accepted by Wigan then that sets the stall out on the values of the club

Well said.

I used to work part time as a barmaid in the 80’s at the Griffin. Thursday night the majority of Wigan players used to do the ‘Lane’.

By the time they got to the Griffin they were nearly all drunk. The worse thing I heard then was swearing, which wasnt used as publicly as it is now.

I would tell them regularly to either stop or move out of the ‘lounge’ area & go into the games area, where it was mainly men anyway.

They would all stop! One of the more sober players would come & apologise & that was that.

The only other thing which has me confused, is why were the police not sent for as soon as it could be seen that trouble was starting & being asked to leave was being ignored? As far as I’m aware, that is the first thing the police tell you to do!

Too right Josie!

When I started drinking in 1958 in Whitehaven there were some very rough Pubs.
There was a mixture of hard coal miners, Irish contractors building Sellafield and sailors. Friday and Saturday nights were wild to put it mildly. Fights galore.
But......abusive language to the bar maids was not tolerated by the regulars. If you crossed the line you were thrown out - literally! - and barred.

Respect is the word I'm looking for.

JT should thank his lucky stars he didn't go to one of these Pubs. He wouldn't have lasted 5 mins.

At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I would like to suggest it might be useful to consider what has happened in the context of the bigger picture - namely the pressure people in high profile positions in our sport are under to perform to high standards and maintain it over a long period of time.

There is a widespread societal problem with the "macho culture" whereby individuals are expected to "work hard and play hard". Anybody who wants to be satisfied with just the work hard ethic is potentially ridiculed and accused of not being a team player. Consequently, excessive drinking is expected, and even encouraged; the excuse being that people in stressful occupations need to "let off steam" on their days off, and this being a "free country" they are damn well entitled to do it.

Such is the macho culture which pervades in rugby league, and in my view is a significant factor in what has come to pass with Tomkinsgate.

Wigan, and the other clubs would be well advised to re-focus their professional sports psychologists away from identifying ways to improve players' performances on the field, to finding alternative ways to stress relieve away from the club.

Please don't take this post as condoning what has gone on in any way - I don't. But as others have pointed out, incidents of this kind are not rare, and to prevent recurrences a broader view of the root causes would in my view be beneficial.

josie andrews wrote:

Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:I find it disheartening how many people feel like this is "a bit of nothing". Might be a reflection of modern society but i find this video utterly abhorrent. Joel is a big fella and for him to push/threaten and abuse a female member of staff who was simply asking him to leave due to intoxicated nature cant be anything than a sackable offence to someone earning probably 7-10 times the average wage.

If this was me i would expect to be sacked by my employer. The "he's just a bit drunk" argument doesnt cut it

if this standard of behaviour is accepted by Wigan then that sets the stall out on the values of the club

Well said.

I used to work part time as a barmaid in the 80’s at the Griffin. Thursday night the majority of Wigan players used to do the ‘Lane’.

By the time they got to the Griffin they were nearly all drunk. The worse thing I heard then was swearing, which wasnt used as publicly as it is now.

I would tell them regularly to either stop or move out of the ‘lounge’ area & go into the games area, where it was mainly men anyway.

They would all stop! One of the more sober players would come & apologise & that was that.

The only other thing which has me confused, is why were the police not sent for as soon as it could be seen that trouble was starting & being asked to leave was being ignored? As far as I’m aware, that is the first thing the police tell you to do!

Josie, I spent a lot of time in the Griffin in the eighties and what you say is correct. (It might also have had something to do with a certain WJB being sat in the vault playing cards)

josie andrews wrote:

Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:I find it disheartening how many people feel like this is "a bit of nothing". Might be a reflection of modern society but i find this video utterly abhorrent. Joel is a big fella and for him to push/threaten and abuse a female member of staff who was simply asking him to leave due to intoxicated nature cant be anything than a sackable offence to someone earning probably 7-10 times the average wage.

If this was me i would expect to be sacked by my employer. The "he's just a bit drunk" argument doesnt cut it

if this standard of behaviour is accepted by Wigan then that sets the stall out on the values of the club

Well said.

I used to work part time as a barmaid in the 80’s at the Griffin. Thursday night the majority of Wigan players used to do the ‘Lane’.

By the time they got to the Griffin they were nearly all drunk. The worse thing I heard then was swearing, which wasnt used as publicly as it is now.

I would tell them regularly to either stop or move out of the ‘lounge’ area & go into the games area, where it was mainly men anyway.

They would all stop! One of the more sober players would come & apologise & that was that.

The only other thing which has me confused, is why were the police not sent for as soon as it could be seen that trouble was starting & being asked to leave was being ignored? As far as I’m aware, that is the first thing the police tell you to do!

The police where called according to the vid and given their response time it was probably the following morning.
Here's my slant on it. The owner has rung both the chuckle brothers and the club up and more than likely asked the police not to take it any further. The person who had the vid may have passed it on at the time who in turn has posted it sometime later. Indeed the originator may have posted or destroyed it. Who knows?
For the record neither of them should wear the hoops again in my opinion.
Josie was you there when Billy B threw Lindsay out the Griffin? I'll bet that was funny?

Does anyone know what (if anything) happened prior to the video being taken? Was there any abuse aimed at Joel and Sam, or were the staff / patrons being nasty towards them etc etc? I'm not condoning their behaviour, but drunk or not, something has triggered this off, imo

The Yonner wrote:At the risk of being shot down in flames here, I would like to suggest it might be useful to consider what has happened in the context of the bigger picture - namely the pressure people in high profile positions in our sport are under to perform to high standards and maintain it over a long period of time.

There is a widespread societal problem with the "macho culture" whereby individuals are expected to "work hard and play hard". Anybody who wants to be satisfied with just the work hard ethic is potentially ridiculed and accused of not being a team player. Consequently, excessive drinking is expected, and even encouraged; the excuse being that people in stressful occupations need to "let off steam" on their days off, and this being a "free country" they are damn well entitled to do it.

Such is the macho culture which pervades in rugby league, and in my view is a significant factor in what has come to pass with Tomkinsgate.

Wigan, and the other clubs would be well advised to re-focus their professional sports psychologists away from identifying ways to improve players' performances on the field, to finding alternative ways to stress relieve away from the club.

Please don't take this post as condoning what has gone on in any way - I don't. But as others have pointed out, incidents of this kind are not rare, and to prevent recurrences a broader view of the root causes would in my view be beneficial.

I think you raise some good points in this post, and i think you are right on many fronts there certainly is a drinking culture within sport especially rugby league.

Going off piste i dont think the problem is limited to sport though i recently read a book on the subject of alcohol and the physiological conditioning that goes on even today. Its strange isnt it you quit smoking and people will praise you, say you dont want to drink and people will call you boring yet both are simply harmful drugs.

Back on topic, you would however expect a professional sportsman like Joel to know the limit, i get what you're saying about the pressure but i think its not like they are football stars who literally cant breathe outside their house, i mean Joel travels past Birmingham and ill give you a tenner for anyone who knows who he is. He is an older member of the team so should have grown out of the macho drinking a long time ago

Sutty wrote:Does anyone know what (if anything) happened prior to the video being taken? Was there any abuse aimed at Joel and Sam, or were the staff / patrons being nasty towards them etc etc? I'm not condoning their behaviour, but drunk or not, something has triggered this off, imo

I doubt it for two reasons;

1) they probably would have left when asked if they thought they were wronged, why would they stay there if they werent looking for an arguement

2) they dont allude in any of their rants to a previous comment, for example if Joel could be heard saying "say sorry for what you said" or "you called me a ""£" first" or something of that nature then it would imply there was previous but as they dont i cant see this being the case

But Sam had his hair pulled he said. He must have had his pony tail on!?!

Wigan_forever19​85​ wrote:I find it disheartening how many people feel like this is "a bit of nothing". Might be a reflection of modern society but i find this video utterly abhorrent. Joel is a big fella and for him to push/threaten and abuse a female member of staff who was simply asking him to leave due to intoxicated nature cant be anything than a sackable offence to someone earning probably 7-10 times the average wage.

If this was me i would expect to be sacked by my employer. The "he's just a bit drunk" argument doesnt cut it

if this standard of behaviour is accepted by Wigan then that sets the stall out on the values of the club

Well said.

Quite how anyone can brush this off makes my mind boggle

And now the second video appears anyone want to carry on defending him?

Sack him a sorry is not good enough