Saints v WIGAN

Discuss all things Wigan Warriors. Comments and opinions on all aspects of the club's performance are welcome.
Exiled Wiganer
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by Exiled Wiganer » Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:57 am

Regardless of what's happened during the season there should never have been an expectation to win that game. It's completely unrealistic.

DaveO's point about expecting to lose even with a full strength pack out is a fair one. Perhaps that would have been the case.

However, we didn't have a full strength pack out. We had a makeshift pack without 6 from the start of the season and without 4 who will hopefully return this year. We had teenagers playing in the middle of the field and having to play long minutes against Saints front row which contains two international standard props.

If fans are going to be critical of the coach I'd say most have the common sense not to use this game as a reason for it.
[/quote]

I am as far as I can tell the only person who criticises Lam, and I don’t cite this game as the sole reason, it merely reinforces a pattern - if you have the time, take a look at any of our games against Wire, Cas, Catalans, Hull, Saints and the Roosters and see whether you can see anything that suggests Lam has the ability to 1) motivate the team, 2) select the right side, 3) come up with a game plan to trouble the opposition or 4) instil calmness and the ability to react well to pressure.

You simply will not find the traits of a top class coach in any of this year’s horror shows. Anyone with common sense would look at that body of evidence and at least question whether he is the man for the job.

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EagleEyePie
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by EagleEyePie » Sat Jul 13, 2019 10:35 am

Exiled Wiganer wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 9:57 am
I am as far as I can tell the only person who criticises Lam, and I don’t cite this game as the sole reason, it merely reinforces a pattern - if you have the time, take a look at any of our games against Wire, Cas, Catalans, Hull, Saints and the Roosters and see whether you can see anything that suggests Lam has the ability to 1) motivate the team, 2) select the right side, 3) come up with a game plan to trouble the opposition or 4) instil calmness and the ability to react well to pressure.

You simply will not find the traits of a top class coach in any of this year’s horror shows. Anyone with common sense would look at that body of evidence and at least question whether he is the man for the job.
I don't know if you haven't been paying attention to other peoples posts, but you're not the only one criticising Lam. And the last bit in bold - that's what people have been doing all season.

Who hasn't been questioning his suitability this season? Most people have. It's inevitable though that people are going to see things differently and have different interpretations.

I'm not convinced Lam is the right man for the job but I also don't think we've been in a situation where we can really tell what's happening. For all the calls of 'this wouldn't happen under Wane' we're basically having the same sort of issues we had in 2017 and look how that season panned out under our most successful coach of the modern era.

In a sport where the pack is pretty much crucial to having a successful side I think most people picked out the pack as being in need of strengthening. Even Adrian Lam said the same thing. We've then gone through the year with the pack getting more and more depleted for one reason or another? Do you not believe that has a significant effect on the strength of the side? Or do you think we should just be able to put whoever we like in the pack and keep winning?

My take on this season is that I don't really know how good we could be under Lam because we've rarely been able to get any sort of consistency going in terms of team selection. That's one of the reasons Saints are running away with the league - they've had a lot of luck with key players not getting injured and even when they do - like Roby recently - they've still had a whole host of other key players out there and crucially two outstanding front row forwards in Thompson and Walmsley.

What I'd love is for us to go into the games against Hull FC and Wire in the next month or two with a strong side and maybe we could see where we are.

It's interesting you mention the Roosters game because that was one of the best performances from a Super League side against an Aussie side in years. We had a horrendous opening 10 minutes and then the players competed set for set with a world class side who have walked all over far stronger sides than ours. And that Cas game away from home is another where I'd argue we played far better than expected given the pack. People focus on our incredible start in that game but Cas should have cruised to victory in that game given the pack we put out.

In terms of him selecting the right side, we'll all have differing opinions on that because of which players people rate and don't. What I would say on that is I don't think we've had many games where there's been a lot of competition for places. On most occasions the team selection is forced upon him. And despite some fans calling for Morgan Escare to play like he's the bloody messiah, Hardaker has been excellent for us and was probably our best player against Saints.

Exiled Wiganer
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by Exiled Wiganer » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:01 am

I can see that line of reasoning, and will be interested to see how we go against Hull and Wire. You touch on some of the points, but by no means all of them. Take a look, say, at the Catalans game in Barcelona, where we had a strong side out. Did we 1) show toughness, 2) show that we had a game plan, or 3) show any stomach for the fight?

You can highlight a weak pack as a mitigating factor, as do many, but we are looking at someone who has a 10% win rate in hard games. That isn’t a “good effort, if only we had had a bit more luck”, that is off the scale hopeless.

I would love him to succeed, but if you take a look at the results and performances as a body of work, it demonstrates absolutely nothing to suggest he knows what he is doing.

I was interested in the timing of his extended contract last week. Clever of them not to wait until we has played a team we used to be able to compete with.

Caboosegg
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by Caboosegg » Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:27 am

Saints 3rd try.... they just let him through.... wtf.....

Should both saints try and hardakers from charge downs be knock ons?
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EagleEyePie
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by EagleEyePie » Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:43 pm

Exiled Wiganer wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:01 am
I can see that line of reasoning, and will be interested to see how we go against Hull and Wire. You touch on some of the points, but by no means all of them. Take a look, say, at the Catalans game in Barcelona, where we had a strong side out. Did we 1) show toughness, 2) show that we had a game plan, or 3) show any stomach for the fight?

You can highlight a weak pack as a mitigating factor, as do many, but we are looking at someone who has a 10% win rate in hard games. That isn’t a “good effort, if only we had had a bit more luck”, that is off the scale hopeless.

I would love him to succeed, but if you take a look at the results and performances as a body of work, it demonstrates absolutely nothing to suggest he knows what he is doing.

I was interested in the timing of his extended contract last week. Clever of them not to wait until we has played a team we used to be able to compete with.
I agree about Barcelona. That game against Catalans we had a stronger pack out but it was a dreadful performance. I still wouldn't say we had a 'strong' pack because as mentioned earlier I think it's the clubs biggest weakness. Some pointed to it being a tired performance after a big effort against Wire the week before but generally that was a poor game for both the team and Lam.

I'd like to say that next week will tell us a bit more about where the team is but it looks like we're going to have more forwards missing - so it isn't likely to answer any questions about how good the team can be with a decent side out and I fear we're going to lose that one.

warriors01
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Re: Saints v WIGAN

Post by warriors01 » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:32 pm

Too be honest our strong pack is weak, Naverette , and Clubb simply are not good enough. Clubb should have gone at the end of the season. Regarding the pack we had out yesterday I thought they did ok. Our greatest problem is our attack its clueless. Williams might better in NRL with a better pack but yesterday he was poor. If we had scored points Saints would have seen less of the ball but we kept turning it over in their 25 because we do not have the ability to create overlaps like Saints were doing. Hopefully, Hastings will put that right especiallly if we can recruit 2 big mobile props. But he will also need another half back to compliment him. If we do we can match saints next season.

ian.birchall
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Re: Skints v WIGAN

Post by ian.birchall » Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:44 pm

Caboosegg wrote:
Sat Jul 13, 2019 11:27 am
Saints 3rd try.... they just let him through.... wtf.....

Should both saints try and hardakers from charge downs be knock ons?
The answer is in the phrase 'charge down' the rules count it as a charge down if it is kick, it is a knock on if you hit a pass from hand onto the pitch.
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keptinthedarkfans
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Re: Saints v WIGAN

Post by keptinthedarkfans » Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:03 am

Not a lot to say about last night's performance only to say i went full of optimism only to see what I was expecting a side seriously lacking in all departments i was hoping pivitol players would step up although for these derdys this should be a must but have to say saw a team with no spine after 10 mins completely lost attacking wise defense with pack depleted pack I expected totally outplayed in every position last word Williams in nrl a hit dont make me bloody laugh can't hack it big games in sl

fozzieskem
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Re: Saints v WIGAN

Post by fozzieskem » Sun Jul 14, 2019 12:43 pm

keptinthedarkfans wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:03 am
Not a lot to say about last night's performance only to say i went full of optimism only to see what I was expecting a side seriously lacking in all departments i was hoping pivitol players would step up although for these derdys this should be a must but have to say saw a team with no spine after 10 mins completely lost attacking wise defense with pack depleted pack I expected totally outplayed in every position last word Williams in nrl a hit dont make me bloody laugh can't hack it big games in sl
I think most thought the same about Sutton and look how well he hid his talents till he got his move,Williams will go well over there I think

DaveO
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Re: Saints v WIGAN

Post by DaveO » Sun Jul 14, 2019 4:11 pm

fozzieskem wrote:
keptinthedarkfans wrote:
Sun Jul 14, 2019 1:03 am
Not a lot to say about last night's performance only to say i went full of optimism only to see what I was expecting a side seriously lacking in all departments i was hoping pivitol players would step up although for these derdys this should be a must but have to say saw a team with no spine after 10 mins completely lost attacking wise defense with pack depleted pack I expected totally outplayed in every position last word Williams in nrl a hit dont make me bloody laugh can't hack it big games in sl
I think most thought the same about Sutton and look how well he hid his talents till he got his move,Williams will go well over there I think
I think the one hiding Sutton’s talents was the coach. Whether there is more talent hidden away a better coach can bring out with Williams I am no so sure. However one thing he won’t be doing is playing behind a beaten pack every week so unless he’s poor (which he isn’t) he’s almost bound to look better.

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