Millward's Influenece

[ChrisA]

Doug Stand posted:
It's just about common sense were Danny Orr is conserned or lack of it. It's not about which player wasn't pulling his weight it's the fact that Danny Orr put's himself in the position were he has to go out and tackle. If he's not there to do it then someone else would have... how are we to really know that the other player would be missing tackles.
Aside from that we were getting beat anyway and playing extremely kack football especially in attack because Danny Orr was goosed. It's all well and good him making all those tackles when the opposition score anyway anf then we look to him to organise the attack and he does nothing.

It;'s his responsibility to lead the attack with Moran and if he can't because whatever issue then it must be addressed. Now if it;s because Danny Orr sin't up to it then that's a different story... but many are saying he is and I'm willinf to give the benefirt of the doubt so if the outside influence of him trying to top the tackle count then you stop it...

Danny Orr throughout this year has made bad decisions in play... bad kicks, wrong options taken... remember him crashing into the sponsor boards unnecessarily... this is just highlighting that he wanted to be the King of the castle but ulitmatley ended up being the dirty rascal.

Saying Danny Orr had to make the tackles because no-body else would I think is wrong Dave. I don't beleive it was part of the game plan that entailed Danny Orr tackling all the time... so the fact that he did it meant he was going against the game plan and again showing bad decision making.

I have said in numerous topics about Orr and Moran that Injuries(Orr) and poor support and a very poor pack have lead to them looking like very bad players. Its no coincidence that recently the pack has been going forward alot better and they have had better supoport, they have both suddenly looked like different players. They are creating and leading the side very well, they are doing what most people want them to do, but you still arent happy. They are both playing very well. Millward is delighted with them, I and alot of the fans are who I have spoke to are delighted with them, but yet there are people like Doug and Daveover who never admit Orr is doing ok and wont be happy until hes kicked out, no matter how well hes playing. Some people just dont like to admit they may have been wrong about a player, it seems you both fall into this category.

[thegimble]

Fraggle posted:

wiganrldeanh posted:
I acnt stand it when people "diss" Orr as they only look at his attacking form. If you watched him alot then you would realise that the reason he cannopt attack like most stand offs do is because he is having to tackle a hell of alot.

The criticism of his attacking play has come from his lack of effectiveness at times when we've had the ball - he shouldn't be defending when we're the team going forward! He plays in a position that involves attack as well as defence, and there have been times when he's been doing one a lot more than the other.

The other criticism has come from the fact that many of us saw him play a lot better at Castleford than he has shown for much of the time at Wigan. It sounds like we're finally getting that kind of play from him, which I think we'll all be happy about. I think that accounts for a lot of the criticism of players, when we know they can do a lot better than their current performances are showing (Wild and Aspinwall both fall into this category as well IMO).

For Cas he was exceptional at times but we let Faz run games and his confidence got hammered. Its no conisidence he gets a run in the side and allowed to infulence games and we win and he gets better.

Next season he could be our best player.

[DaveO]

Doug Stand posted:
It's just about common sense were Danny Orr is conserned or lack of it. It's not about which player wasn't pulling his weight it's the fact that Danny Orr put's himself in the position were he has to go out and tackle.

What popsition is that then? In the defensive line somewhere? Are we suposed to defend with 12 or 13 men? If to comes to that shouldn't Moran move out into the centres as well and then we can get by with 11 men doing the tackling?

If he's not there to do it then someone else would have... how are we to really know that the other player would be missing tackles.

Our defence is worse with him not playing so clearly that isn't the case.

Aside from that we were getting beat anyway and playing extremely kack football especially in attack because Danny Orr was goosed. It's all well and good him making all those tackles when the opposition score anyway anf then we look to him to organise the attack and he does nothing.

That is where I came in and as I said it isn't his fault he is goosed if the rest of the team aren't doing their job in defence.

It;'s his responsibility to lead the attack with Moran and if he can't because whatever issue then it must be addressed. Now if it;s because Danny Orr sin't up to it then that's a different story... but many are saying he is and I'm willinf to give the benefirt of the doubt so if the outside influence of him trying to top the tackle count then you stop it...

You do and the question is how. He was being blamed for tackling and it is the first time I have ever seen this sort of comment. Usually in this situation and with players like Lam who also put in his fair share of big hits, the blame was laid at the pack for not protecting the half back. Not the half back for putting the tackle in.

Therefore I think it is perverse to slag Orr off under similar circumstances.

Danny Orr throughout this year has made bad decisions in play... bad kicks, wrong options taken... remember him crashing into the sponsor boards unnecessarily... this is just highlighting that he wanted to be the King of the castle but ulitmatley ended up being the dirty rascal.

He isn't the only one to make some bad calls but I fail to see what that has to do with his defence as I don't think he has the option but to do the tackling.

Saying Danny Orr had to make the tackles because no-body else would I think is wrong Dave. I don't beleive it was part of the game plan that entailed Danny Orr tackling all the time... so the fact that he did it meant he was going against the game plan and again showing bad decision making.

That is just speculation. If there was a game plan that said Orr was to stand in the centres then you would see the centre move to the middle and take his position in the line. If Orr was waving the centre away then you might have some evidence for Orr going against the plan.

As it is the defnce lines up the same way all the time. No variation so to me that says the players know their positins and are adopting the defensive line they have been told to adopt.

So if you want to blame anyone for Orr tackling too much blame Farrah. He is the defensive coach so if Millward reckons Orr tackles too much its up to Farrah to sort it out.

Dave

[GeoffN]

DaveO posted:
If to comes to that shouldn't Moran move out into the centres as well

He does. On the right usually...although I suspect one reason for that is for the potential intercepts (of which we haven't seen that many, compared to when he was at London). He does a good defensive job there, too; it's not like he's hiding there (unlike say, Long or Deacon, who are hiding there).

[wiganrldeanh]

Doug Stand posted:
OK, look back at my first response to you it says the blame should be equally divided including Danny Orr. So yes put Farrah in there as well...

My analagy is this... you're building a house, you have a plasterer and an electrician.. both have very different jobs but equally important. What happens if the plasterer suddenly starts wiring the house because he thinks..(we don't know).. but he thinks the electriciam make make a balls of it... OK he may do a great job but what you have is the plasterer doing two jobs and then consequently being inaffective and the electrician is not doing what you're paying him to do.
You basically end up with a sub standard house.

Get it?

OK if Danny Orr is told to go out and stand wherever in the defensive line and tackle all day fine it's not his fault but I doubt that, it's communication, common sense...You've already realised that other teams move the playmaker out a bit eg Long so surely you can see that if Danny Orr is making a shed load of tackles then it's wrong.

My point on him making bad calls is just a refelction on his state of mind at the time. How can we trust someone who is constantly choosing the wrong option be it where he stands in the defensive line to jumping into the hoardings... It's got nothing to do with anyone else making bad judgments. Danny Orr was constantly getting it wrong until Millward came in and things seem to have improved.

Just as a point I don't believe Danny Orr's defensive duties were soley to blame for his poor performance in attack.

So to summerise I don't soley blame Danny Orr for this but he has to take responsibility if he wasn;t being explicitly told to go on the field and put in more tackles than someone in the pack.

Bottom line... Danny Orr is a stand-off... he shouldn't be trying to top the tackle count.

Danny Orr was playing crap, now he has improved.
Betts is not in charge Millward is co-incidence no I don't think so... how much of this is down to Millward and how much is down to Danny Orr I don't know.

Who is to blame for previous kack Danny Orr performances... Managment, Team Mates, Physio but yes Danny Orr himnself... he has to take responsibility.

We had no attack... saying that Danny Orr is the only one that would defend is wrong.

Maybe doug, but instead of orr trying not too tackle, he should just not go out of his way to tackle.

I mean if somebody was running straight for him, then he cant just move out of the way if you get my drift.......

[DaveO]

Doug Stand posted:
OK, look back at my first response to you it says the blame should be equally divided including Danny Orr. So yes put Farrah in there as well...

My analagy is this... you're building a house, you have a plasterer and an electrician.. both have very different jobs but equally important. What happens if the plasterer suddenly starts wiring the house because he thinks..(we don't know).. but he thinks the electriciam make make a balls of it... OK he may do a great job but what you have is the plasterer doing two jobs and then consequently being inaffective and the electrician is not doing what you're paying him to do.
You basically end up with a sub standard house.

Get it?

Yes but you would blame the plasterer and I would blame the electician.

OK if Danny Orr is told to go out and stand wherever in the defensive line and tackle all day fine it's not his fault but I doubt that, it's communication, common sense...You've already realised that other teams move the playmaker out a bit eg Long so surely you can see that if Danny Orr is making a shed load of tackles then it's wrong.

I can but I am not blaming Orr for doing that. I maintain he is doing thw work of (shall we say ) two men because he has no choice.

Just as a point I don't believe Danny Orr's defensive duties were soley to blame for his poor performance in attack.

Neither do I and I don't dispute his poor attacking performances so far but I don't see any milage in criticising him for the amount of defence he does.

Bottom line... Danny Orr is a stand-off... he shouldn't be trying to top the tackle count.

I don't think he is trying to top the tackle count but when others around him have not providing much in the way of defence he has taken responsibility to try and stem the flow and has put his body on the line. Of course its not his job but you seem to be having a go at him for this whereas I see it as something he should be praised for.

Bottom line for me is if we hadn't had such a leaky defence lately he would not be having to do the work he does. In my opinion we look better defensivly when he plays than when he doesn't so that tells me there must be shortcomings elsewhere if it is taking a stand off to make the defence improve.

Who is to blame for previous kack Danny Orr performances... Managment, Team Mates, Physio but yes Danny Orr himnself... he has to take responsibility.

For his lack of ideas going forward I agree but for working hard in defence I don't think he can be blamed at all.

We had no attack... saying that Danny Orr is the only one that would defend is wrong.

As I said he improves the defence when he plays and if its not a stand offs job to do that then there must be shortcomings elsewhere.

Well I know there are. You only have to watch the centres get walked all over by any side that is of a reasonable size in the 3/4 line. Both Moran and Orr are better tacklers than those outside them IMO so it is hardly surprising they end up doing more than they should is it.

Dave

[cpwigan]

Just something to be aware of and I am not getting into the argument but tackle counts and tackling are very misleading. If you look at a tackle sheet for a team it may often say X did 30+ tackles and you think wow he's working very hard and Y did 12 tackles and think cripes he's a lazy blighter BUT often the number of tackles made are determined by the opposition choosing to deliberately run at that individual to either tire them out or because they are smaller / vulnerable (common tactics by attacks v halfbacks). People try to avoid hurtful big hitter

Statitics and such forth are very misleading

[Doveoverdave]

( sparks + plasterers aside ) is just about spot on and any top coach would would agree.

Or Brickie!

[cpwigan]

And the oldest trick in the book is to run at the halfbacks for easy yards and to tire them

I personally think you'll find Orrs form is more related to injury either to himself or his halfback partner and/or constant changes in playing personnel.

[wiganrldeanh]

Doug Stand posted:

wiganrldeanh posted:
]Maybe doug, but instead of orr trying not too tackle, he should just not go out of his way to tackle.

I mean if somebody was running straight for him, then he cant just move out of the way if you get my drift.......

That's what I'm saying Dean

oh

fair enough then