WIGAN TO SNAKE HELENS

[lucky 13]

I'm not so sure how good saints are.
It's been an average league affected by COVID this last three seasons. They have had a decent run without injury towards most other teams.
I know it seems a simplistic view but for me the main difference between Saints and everyone else is Walmsley.
Evidence we actually topped the league under Lam and came close in a GF year before last. We beat them without Walmsley in a league decider and with him not fully fit almost that GF. He makes the same yards in 50 minutes than two of our props put together if not three. That leads to more passive D and retreating defenders for others to make yards or play off. Look at Morgan Knowles really highly regarded yet his stats are way down on Batty week in week out, put Batty in a pack in this league with Walmsley and see how he goes, example look at Bentley at Saints and at Leeds. That Toulouse game they missed 4 front line players and your then already digging into names most have never heard of, it's a top heavy shallow squad that's been lucky injury wise. Percival's a very good SL player Grace is around Marshall in quality Makinson is a good SL player. Would only take Makinson and Percival out of that backline. Chances are when fit Bevan slots in our team Field is a cut above this season. Halves, well again it's easier to play off Walmsley's yardage not so easy without as Toulouse showed Lomax good SL player jury still out on 7 he's still young Richardson looked good for large parts when they had two very good props what's he like now? I'm not blown away. Roby has been top draw one of the best hookers in the SL era he still is even though he's half the player now but then SL been average so his slide is not as obvious. Out of the pack obviously Walmsley he's top quality and would go well in NRL Knowles, Roby but who else? This is not a great team, a good one in an average league.
We are a work in progress not near finished but I'm optimistic and full of hope there is a gap between Saints and the rest of us but nothing that can't be bridged by an half decent well coached team.

[CherryB]

Too much emphasis is always placed on individuals. Trying to work out which players are better in a Saints or Wigan side is impossible, because it is how the whole team fits together that really matters, and that comes from coaching and culture, which we are sadly lacking at present. Remember Madge took our woeful team, added a couple of reasonable players, and made us into Champions. That wasn't about individuals, it was the whole collective effort of the team. Warrington have chased success for years by signing stars, they have probably had the best individual players, but it hasn't lead to any trophies.

[the pieman]

Too much emphasis is always placed on individuals. Trying to work out which players are better in a Saints or Wigan side is impossible, because it is how the whole team fits together that really matters, and that comes from coaching and culture, which we are sadly lacking at present. Remember Madge took our woeful team, added a couple of reasonable players, and made us into Champions. That wasn't about individuals, it was the whole collective effort of the team. Warrington have chased success for years by signing stars, they have probably had the best individual players, but it hasn't lead to any trophies.

i would use the Roby v Mcillorum arguement as a point to back up you point about comparing individuals

When we had MM i personally wouldnt have swapped him for Roby. thats not because Roby isnt a fantastic player but because MM fit into our side at that point in time and was our perfect hooker for the way we played. If you try to have a reasoned arguement with some Saints fans, you may as well not bother as no player, irrelevant of who they play for are good enough for the saints team.

i have some work colleagues who i can have a reasoned debate with, but there are a couple that i wont even talk rugby with as they are so blinkered it is untrue, and the jealousy / bitterness / hatred etc of Wigan comes spitting out of their mouth whenever they are mentioned, so its just easier to not speak to them about RL