Ancient & Loyal

[WarriorWinger]

Season ticket holders in the West Stand with my son who can be respectfully vocal at times during the game . He has been asked to be less noisy more than once lol . I suspect it is in case he wakes someone up .
We prefer away games as well always more atmosphere.

EW

Im a season ticket holder in the East stand and I am happy to sing and cheer or sit and watch but those happy to sing are spread around in the east so a proper sing along rarely gets going and not many want to sing on their own, it was much better when the drum was at the top of the East stand, for all that moaned about it, it always created a good atmosphere.

[the pieman]

Just to clarify my original comment about atmosphere. I meant to ot to include singing/cheering/general noise, but also the feeling from fans in the immediate vicinity.

I usually try and get a ticket in the east stand, but get what's available, high up if possible. The Wigan fans who surround me, I'd say 60% to 70% do more complaining than cheering. That creates an atmosphere that makes me prefer away games, where the Wigan fans seem to be more positive and enthusiastic.

fair point

i sat besides a fan who virtually never cheered for all the years i sat there. I think he needed Offiah to go the full length beating all 13 players twice over, before he would get up and appreciate the play, and then would probably say it was weak defence

Season ticket holders in the West Stand with my son who can be respectfully vocal at times during the game . He has been asked to be less noisy more than once lol . I suspect it is in case he wakes someone up .
We prefer away games as well always more atmosphere.

EW

He sounds like me

i got told off by an older gentleman for swearing at one match. I looked at my dad astounded as for once it wasnt me (countless other times i would have accepted it ). Got to be honest i do miss him and his wife attending matches as i thought of them like my grandparents. Sat there with flask and blankets, loved the games and i always stopped the flow of traffic down the steps post match so they could both get out and get hold of the rail. i think he knew it was difficult for me to control my frustrations at a game, and just put it down to me bottling up all my work frustrations to come out on a Friday night

I've only sat in the West for 1 match as i was fortunate (or in my case unfortunate) to get corporate hospitality for Wigan v Wire. 1st set of 6 and we forced a knock on. I'm up on my feet giving it all, to have this great big shovel of a hand on my shoulder sit, down and calm down. Looked behind and Colin Clarke and his friends all sat there. Never been as quiet for 80mins after that

[Charriots Offiah]

The difference is that Josie’s comment is fact and not the fault of IFL and co.

Is it a fact that both Lockers and Tommy where given assistant coaching jobs without these jobs being advertised outside of the club to try and find the best person for each job?

I have no idea.

[Charriots Offiah]

Just to clarify my original comment about atmosphere. I meant to ot to include singing/cheering/general noise, but also the feeling from fans in the immediate vicinity.

I usually try and get a ticket in the east stand, but get what's available, high up if possible. The Wigan fans who surround me, I'd say 60% to 70% do more complaining than cheering. That creates an atmosphere that makes me prefer away games, where the Wigan fans seem to be more positive and enthusiastic.

fair point

i sat besides a fan who virtually never cheered for all the years i sat there. I think he needed Offiah to go the full length beating all 13 players twice over, before he would get up and appreciate the play, and then would probably say it was weak defence

Season ticket holders in the West Stand with my son who can be respectfully vocal at times during the game . He has been asked to be less noisy more than once lol . I suspect it is in case he wakes someone up .
We prefer away games as well always more atmosphere.

EW

If the music doesn’t wake them up I don’t know what will. I suggest that they move to a corner of the stand if they are easily offended. Sport is about passion.

[archiekeith]

Loyalty and sport are not cohesive bed partners

Loyalty is for relationships and emotional connections

Sports clubs build relationships and emotional connections all the time, loyalty can and does exist within sport

Sport is winning - that’s all it is - you cannot be loyal - being loyal will lose you matches and trophies

Leeds won for many years by retaining and staying loyal to core players and staff as have Saints, a lot of the back room staff have stayed the same for years yet both have any still win things.

Look at all the dominant teams in any sport loyalty is not a quality you should promote. I’m not saying you can be good to the people in the team but the team winning is the only thing any owner/coach should be loyal to period

As above really, Saints as an example have built a family culture and have stayed loyal to lots of staff and players, lots are still there from pre unsuccessful Cunningham years and yet they are now in a dominant period. You create a culture and we’ll being and people will want to be a part of it, you chop and change and sack people because winning is all that matters and people will steer clear due to lack of continuity and job security

You view sport as a cut throat win at all costs mentality, Salford want to win also but I would argue they are a business first and foremost who build solid relationships with players and staff alike that creates a culture where loyalty is rewarded, see Brodie Croft new deal.

Not every club can win the same league every year

Cohesion and Loyalty can and do co exist inSport as is expressed in Wes's post quite elequently emphasised This is not to deny thatLoyalty features necessarily in every transaction or inter relation the Club enters into or is a party to

[medlocke]

The difference is that Josie’s comment is fact and not the fault of IFL and co.

Is it a fact that both Lockers and Tommy where given assistant coaching jobs without these jobs being advertised outside of the club to try and find the best person for each job?

I have no idea.

Fair enough

[DaveO]

And repeated references to the 85-95 era, which was exceptional for a number of reasons, and was 28 to 38 years ago, just may be a factor in many being unhappy whatever IL and KR may do.

If fans' expectations are based on an unrepeatable golden era, leading to a miserable, complaining atmosphere at games and around the town during the week. This could explain why we have an ageing fan base.

Younger folk in Wigan may think "That's not for me". They'll be attracted to come back by the atmosphere at games being one that creates excitement and anticipation. Yes, that needs a winning team to some extent, though crowds went up during Nobby's "great escape" period.

As someone who goes to more away games than home ones, I notice a downbeat feeling when I come to the DW. Even at last year's Derby match, we were out-shouted by Saints fans for most of it. The atmosphere only built in response to the team's efforts - shouldn't it work both ways?

I'm sure there are many other factors involved, but, even if I'm partly right, something needs to change from our side.

Before you slag me off, just pause and consider that I might just be partly right. I'm a Wigan fan through and through, have been for approaching 60 years. I want success for the team.

Everything isn't perfect, but if we want improvement, the fans, management and players all need to pull in the same direction. Do you agree?

It’s nothing to do with any bygone era at all. The fact the club hands out extensions to contracts to players who should retire or it should let go because they aren’t good enough is not forced on it by some imaginary restrictions faced in the current era.

It’s also very annoying to see yet another reference to the clubs era of success used as an excuse of the relative lack of it recently. Now apparently according to you it’s also putting you get fans off. WTF is that based on except absolutely nothing? Where on earth did you dream that one up?

In case you missed it Saints have won four GF’s in a row and over the last ten years have won five to Wigan’s two. I think that should be the other way around and one of the contributing factors of why it isn’t is a misplaced loyalty to players who, as I said, should retire or aren’t good enough. Lockers came very close to ruining his reputation by playing on so long and when the club said TL could decide when he retired my head hit the desk. Clubb’s contract extension was crazy and you know what I think about Powell.

It’s not just having these players in the team that is the issue either. The club seems to go to sleep on the recruiting side to replace them. It’s as if they don’t know how to do it.

None of this would have happened in the clubs era of success but there is absolutely no reason why it should now.

[DaveO]

WF 1985 in response to your earlier post about loyalty and success not being good bedfellows I’d like to draw your attention to the period of the early 70 s to mid 80s and the most dominant period in the history of English footballs first division.Liverpool totally dominated football at that time under Shanklys reign and the system he set up, this was the “boot room” a pathway for former players and coaches to progress which several of them did, Paisley, Fagin, Evans and Dalgleish all followed in his footsteps to bring success. Now I’m not saying I’m right and your wrong just that we can all use examples to prove or disprove our views what matters is that we as Wigan fans have a successful team that finally gets the monkey that is
St Helens off our back

That era of Liverpool’s success only included Dalgleish as a retiring former player walking into a top coaching position when recently retired (even then I am not sure he walked off the pitch into the job but I wouldn’t know for sure).

The difference is if Liverpool operated the way Wigan do, Paisley, Fagin and Evans probably wouldn’t have got the jobs as players like Emlyn Hughes or John Toshack would have automatically been put on the coaching staff.

[cherry toffee]

The point I was making Dave O, was that Shankly set up a system were promotion came from within no outsiders were ever considered as far as I’m aware, all the managers during that period came through the system and as well as the coaches that went on to manage the club several players joined the coaching staff when they finished playing , Chris Lawler for one and I’m almost sure Hughes and Aldridge did,most teams give former players a job when they finish Man Utd did it with Phelan and Carrick so it’s not just Wigan

[Wigan_forever1985]

The point I was making Dave O, was that Shankly set up a system were promotion came from within no outsiders were ever considered as far as I’m aware, all the managers during that period came through the system and as well as the coaches that went on to manage the club several players joined the coaching staff when they finished playing , Chris Lawler for one and I’m almost sure Hughes and Aldridge did,most teams give former players a job when they finish Man Utd did it with Phelan and Carrick so it’s not just Wigan

And how did that work out for them?

So as this thread has come back ill clarify some of my points.

Its not that you cant mix loyalty and sport but they have to be at worse a 60/40 split in favour of the sport i.e you cannot let loyalty over rule the sporting side of things. This comes to DaveO's point blind loyalty to players who are simply not good enough and therefore damaging your teams chances of competing/winning trophies

there are numerous examples of this in the Wigan set up.

Someone mentioned how Leeds being successful remaining loyal - well they had one of the best spines in the comp so yes absolutely stay loyal to them as they were all at the top of their game

Look at saints and Roby - yes locality but he's one of the best players that's ever played the game - were are remaining loyal to someone who would struggle to get in another superleague team in a pivotal position. Thats when loyalty kills you

Also like DaveO says Wigan have this thing of running players till they drop then going and looking for a replacement - again look to Saints they know Roby hasn't got long left but they've already brought in his replacement and Roby will be phased out. Wigan will wait till Powell leaves then start flapping and either stick a young player in there who isnt ready or end up with a 2nd rate player