Look out - the french are coming (again)

[Matthew]

http://www.sportinglife.com/rugbyleague ... otter.html

Couple of cracking quotes:

Sporting Life
Catalans Dragons head coach Mick Potter has welcomed proposals to include a second French club in Super League as well as the possibility of France taking part in an expanded four-nations competition in 2009.

The League are considering whether to increase Super League by two teams to a 14-club competition in two years' time and Toulouse, who lost out to the Perpignan-based Catalans, are one of the clubs hoping to be given the green light.

"It would be great to have another French team in Super League, whether it is Toulouse or someone else," he said.

Paris perhaps?

Either there are too many good clubs to mention - or Mick can't remember any of them apart from toulouse.

Sporting Life
"The more success the Catalans have, the better it will be for French rugby league. If youngsters see Catalans doing well, they might want to start playing and then the national team will improve. This is especially important with the 2008 World Cup ahead.

Success??? Is it me, or did Catalans finish bottom of the SL last year? They are supposed to be the best side in France - have a host of overseas players (just like the rest of super league - I know!) and still couldn't escape the bottom - so how much better are toulouse or "someone else" as he puts it going to do?

If we are trying to develop the game then surely our focus should be improving the lions first?

They must have a pretty fast track system if they think that youngsters watching now are aiming to be involved in the 2008 world cup!

Sporting Life
Lewis admitted bringing top-flight rugby league back to France last season, nine years after the failed experiment to include Paris St Germain in the division, had made Super League XI one of the best campaigns so far.

"From a Super League point of view, one of the best things to come from last year was the sight of so many English supporters enjoying coming to Perpignan for away games against Les Catalans," he said.

He added: "A decision will be taken about having 14 clubs in Super League by 2009 and, of course, one of the things under consideration is having another French team in Super League."

Personally I thought that having a team immune from relegation was unfair (and a little contraversial) - so les cats hardly improved SL for me.

How many les cats fans made it away? I'm guessing not many and probably even less will this year. Trips to France only really apply to people who have a fair bit of spare cash kicking around - as I dread to think of the cost of taking a family of four to France for the weekend. And that money is going in tour operators pockets and isn't helping the game.

Now I'll admit that I am not the biggest fan of les cats inclusion in SL - especially as they are immune from relegation - however 2 teams?? That is taking it a bit far. Why not have a team from South Africa in as well - what about Germany? With the salary cap strangling the development of home grown GB players; the RFL seems to be more concerned in including clubs where it's staff and referees (sorry rob) might like to go on holiday!

How are the fans of Widnes and Castleford (to name but 2) going to feel about this? Surely if there is to be another french team in SL then they have to come up through NL1? If the RFL is that keen then they can fund the travel and the french team can be constrained by the 400K that the NL1 teams have to - let's see them PROVE themselves worthy to be in SL - rather than sneak in the back door.

Before anyone says anything about "business models" may I remind them that this is about sport and the best team winning - not having the nicest presentation

[robjoenz]

Am I right in saying that Catalans finished bottom of the league with the most points ever (SL era) in that position? This is a good achievement and one that proves that standards have only got better in SL. You must admit last season was an exciting season, both for us and when watching other SL sides (ignoring the fact that Saints did a clean sweep).

You make some valid points about strengthening the GB pool of players, but there is some improvements to be made from playing against more varied better quality opposition, it could be a two way improvement. I also think that Les Catalans have more French born players than most give them credit for.

As for the idea about making another French side go through the division to prove their place in SL. Well, you can look at Celtic Crusaders as an example of how this could possibly work. However, I can't see a French side being able to support themselves financially travelling to the back end of Yorkshire or West Cumbria every other week or attracting crowds that will want to see second rate rugby league (no offence to NL fans).

My personal preference would be to expand SL (possibly to more than 14 teams) and get back teams like Widnes and Castleford first and then consider sides like Toulouse. However, the RFL wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't explore all avenues.

[Matthew]

robjoenz posted:
Am I right in saying that Catalans finished bottom of the league with the most points ever (SL era) in that position? This is a good achievement and one that proves that standards have only got better in SL. You must admit last season was an exciting season, both for us and when watching other SL sides (ignoring the fact that Saints did a clean sweep).

None the less; les cats still finished bottom - despite the bizarre refing of Ashley Klein on the opening night and facing a skeleton stains squad prior to the challenge cup final

I would be more inclined to think that the top sides are slipping back rather than everyone else is improving massively.

Last season was exciting - however I am pretty sure that it would have been just as exciting for us without the french!

robjoenz posted:
You make some valid points about strengthening the GB pool of players, but there is some improvements to be made from playing against more varied better quality opposition, it could be a two way improvement. I also think that Les Catalans have more French born players than most give them credit for.

les cats are (unfortunately) pretty much a one man team - Stacey Jones. Without him they never done very well and when teams managed to keep him quiet, les cats invariable took a beating. Les cats may have a large number of french born players - but how many are them are french born STARS?

robjoenz posted:
However, I can't see a French side being able to support themselves financially travelling to the back end of Yorkshire or West Cumbria every other week or attracting crowds that will want to see second rate rugby league (no offence to NL fans).

And that is what this is really about, money. Not for the English clubs - but for the RFL and the french equivalent of sky.

You say yourself that it will be "second rate" rugby. As I said, inclusion in the super league should be on merit - not on a business plan that neither helps the English clubs nor GB players. The current NL1 cap means that NL1 teams cannot afford to pay their players a decent wage - so many young players on the fringes are lost to the game. In order to improve the English game we need more players competing for places - not a club in a different country. How many young British players have signed for les cats - or will sign for toulouse (or however is chosen)?

robjoenz posted:
My personal preference would be to expand SL (possibly to more than 14 teams) and get back teams like Widnes and Castleford first and then consider sides like Toulouse. However, the RFL wouldn't be doing their job properly if they didn't explore all avenues.

Why not have a play off style tournament to see who joins super league? - you could even have a mini league type affair - 3 or 4 teams all playing each other home and away. The winner/runners up get into SL on merit.

This won't happen because by the time toulouse or however are ready to join SL the RFL will have invested too much money in them, installing an imported coaching team and a couple of foreign stars and selling the tv rights on the continent.

This has nothing to do with exploring avenues and everything to do with financial gain.

[Fraggle]

Matthew posted:

robjoenz posted:
Am I right in saying that Catalans finished bottom of the league with the most points ever (SL era) in that position? This is a good achievement and one that proves that standards have only got better in SL. You must admit last season was an exciting season, both for us and when watching other SL sides (ignoring the fact that Saints did a clean sweep).

None the less; les cats still finished bottom - despite the bizarre refing of Ashley Klein on the opening night and facing a skeleton stains squad prior to the challenge cup final

Sorry Matthew, that argument doesn't stand up at all. There are bizarre refereeing performances in every season, Klein last year wasn't on his own, and Sean Long will tell you it's not the first time that St Helens put out a weakened team around a Cup Final! Les Cats aren't the first team to benefit from these things, or would you also argue that some of Bradford's successes in recent years should be devalued because they've been lucky enough to play St Helens when the Saints left out almost an entire first team?

robjoenz posted:
You make some valid points about strengthening the GB pool of players, but there is some improvements to be made from playing against more varied better quality opposition, it could be a two way improvement. I also think that Les Catalans have more French born players than most give them credit for.

les cats are (unfortunately) pretty much a one man team - Stacey Jones. Without him they never done very well and when teams managed to keep him quiet, les cats invariable took a beating. Les cats may have a large number of french born players - but how many are them are french born STARS?

That depends on your definition of stars. The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams tend to include players from clubs at the bottom part of the league, or even NL1, but they are still international players even if they play for, say, Widnes. The French-born players at Les Catalans are mostly also French internationals, so if representing your country makes you a star then they meet the description.

As for Les Cats being a one-man team, how about Michael Dobson's contribution to their season last year...?

robjoenz posted:
However, I can't see a French side being able to support themselves financially travelling to the back end of Yorkshire or West Cumbria every other week or attracting crowds that will want to see second rate rugby league (no offence to NL fans).

And that is what this is really about, money. Not for the English clubs - but for the RFL and the french equivalent of sky.

You say yourself that it will be "second rate" rugby. As I said, inclusion in the super league should be on merit - not on a business plan that neither helps the English clubs nor GB players. The current NL1 cap means that NL1 teams cannot afford to pay their players a decent wage - so many young players on the fringes are lost to the game. In order to improve the English game we need more players competing for places - not a club in a different country. How many young British players have signed for les cats - or will sign for toulouse (or however is chosen)?

Isn't the league organisation called Superleague (Europe) Limited? So why the obsession with helping GB or English players? That's not the sole purpose of our league, and indeed the international teams come under the remit of the RFL, not Superleague, so it should be up to the RFL to try and improve the situation as much as, if not more, than the league. Petty distinction, perhaps, but they are two seperate organisations with different roles in our sport. SL(E)'s primary aim will be to try to get the best spectacle they can, and that doesn't necessary involve what's best for GB, England, traditional RL areas etc.

Matthew posted:
This has nothing to do with exploring avenues and everything to do with financial gain.

And the reality is our sport struggles to get sponsors for its major competitions (Challenge Cup now being sponsored by a university?!) so money is an important issue. It's not really any different to any other sport - in soccer there's the issue about the number of English clubs in the European Champions League. In the old days, only the Champions were allowed to partake, which seemed very sensible to me, but some of the big clubs who didn't qualify for a few years wanted more money so the competition was changed to allow several clubs from the major leagues, including non-Champions which to me makes a mockery of a "Champions" league but it's worth too much financially to the clubs to get them to change.

Our sport needs the money as much as any other sport, we will disappear if we don't especially in a media climate where even our appalling record in cricket and rugby union, tennis failures and boxers with more money than sense all get far more coverage than anything that happens in rugby league. It's a long time since sport was just about winners and losers!

[DaveO]

Fraggle posted:

Matthew posted:

robjoenz posted:
Am I right in saying that Catalans finished bottom of the league with the most points ever (SL era) in that position? This is a good achievement and one that proves that standards have only got better in SL. You must admit last season was an exciting season, both for us and when watching other SL sides (ignoring the fact that Saints did a clean sweep).

None the less; les cats still finished bottom - despite the bizarre refing of Ashley Klein on the opening night and facing a skeleton stains squad prior to the challenge cup final

Sorry Matthew, that argument doesn't stand up at all. There are bizarre refereeing performances in every season, Klein last year wasn't on his own, and Sean Long will tell you it's not the first time that St Helens put out a weakened team around a Cup Final! Les Cats aren't the first team to benefit from these things, or would you also argue that some of Bradford's successes in recent years should be devalued because they've been lucky enough to play St Helens when the Saints left out almost an entire first team?

Matthew is talking about points total not success. There is a subtle difference. For Bradford to be successful they had to do more than get a lucky draw against a weak Saints side for one round of SL. Les Cats on the other hand were the lucky ones out of the sides at the bottom of the league to play Saints before the cup final. I assume they got what many would say was an unlikely victory as a result and so two "free" league points were theirs.

The swings and roundabouts philosophy does not apply here IMO.

As to the general idea of a second French side in the SL then I think the RFL/SL are trying to run before they can walk. 2009 is significant because that is when the proposed franchise system kicks in and automatic promotion/relegation goes out of the window.

So Les Cats are ensured entry into the franchise world post 2008 as they can't be relegated in the meantime and a new French side would also be immune from relegation as to get into the competition in 2009 they would have been granted a franchise.

The RFL/SL needs Les Cats to be competitive because if they aren't and we have two French sides propping up the league it won't do the game any good anywhere IMO.

As to the RFL concentrating on business in their own back yard before worrying about the French, well regardless of the rights and wrongs of looking after the French, is there anyone who thinks the RFL/SL are doing a good job here in the UK?

I don't. If the RF want to promote the game in France fair enough but that does not mean they ought to get away with the mess the game is in here.

Dave

[Matthew]

For ease of reading I've cut down some of the quotes for fear of incurring the wrath of Jimmy!

Fraggle posted:
Sorry Matthew, that argument doesn't stand up at all. There are bizarre refereeing performances in every season, Klein last year wasn't on his own, and Sean Long will tell you it's not the first time that St Helens put out a weakened team around a Cup Final! Les Cats aren't the first team to benefit from these things, or would you also argue that some of Bradford's successes in recent years should be devalued because they've been lucky enough to play St Helens when the Saints left out almost an entire first team?

I think you missed my point. Despite having the aforementioned benefits - les cats STILL finished bottom. Would you have been happy if it had been us that was relegated instead of Castleford? The clubs apparently signed up to the agreement to protect the weakest team in the league from relegation - do you think that the vote would have been the same had it been put to the fans? Who after all provide the money and generate the media attention which attracts sponsors?

Fraggle posted:
That depends on your definition of stars. The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams tend to include players from clubs at the bottom part of the league, or even NL1, but they are still international players even if they play for, say, Widnes. The French-born players at Les Catalans are mostly also French internationals, so if representing your country makes you a star then they meet the description.

As for Les Cats being a one-man team, how about Michael Dobson's contribution to their season last year...?

Dobson showed talent at les cats - however he couldn't (and didn't) change the course of their season. It was only when he came to Wigan that he had a sufficient number of quality players around him to really make a difference.

I would define "Stars" in RL as someone who captures the imagination and by their playing encourages youngsters to get involved in the game. No disrespect to them - but I don't see many "stars" in the French National team.

Fraggle posted:
Isn't the league organisation called Superleague (Europe) Limited? So why the obsession with helping GB or English players?

SL Europe is a business - just like Microsoft or Walmart. Their interest is making money for themselves and share holders - they are not a charitable concern.

I am English (and British) and that is why I am obsessed with helping GB players.

Fraggle posted:
That's not the sole purpose of our league, and indeed the international teams come under the remit of the RFL, not Superleague, so it should be up to the RFL to try and improve the situation as much as, if not more, than the league. Petty distinction, perhaps, but they are two seperate organisations with different roles in our sport.

However I don't see the NRL trying to encourage the game in Tonga by allowing them a team into the NRL; or Somoa for that reason. The South Sea Islands are far more rugby orientated than the round ball purists of france.

Fraggle posted:
SL(E)'s primary aim will be to try to get the best spectacle they can, and that doesn't necessary involve what's best for GB, England, traditional RL areas etc.

As I stated above, I believe that SL(E)'s principal concern is money and that definitely has nothing to do with anything else

Fraggle posted:
And the reality is our sport struggles to get sponsors for its major competitions (Challenge Cup now being sponsored by a university?!) so money is an important issue.

Other sponsors were on the table for the CC. The RFL chose Leeds Uni.

Fraggle posted:
It's not really any different to any other sport - in soccer there's the issue about the number of English clubs in the European Champions League. In the old days, only the Champions were allowed to partake, which seemed very sensible to me, but some of the big clubs who didn't qualify for a few years wanted more money so the competition was changed to allow several clubs from the major leagues, including non-Champions which to me makes a mockery of a "Champions" league but it's worth too much financially to the clubs to get them to change.

The last place we need to copy ideas is from football - which is the most money obsessed sport in the world - $250 million for a player past his best for a team that wouldn't get into the first division (or whatever it is called this week) over here - lunacy!

Fraggle posted:
Our sport needs the money as much as any other sport, we will disappear if we don't especially in a media climate where even our appalling record in cricket and rugby union, tennis failures and boxers with more money than sense all get far more coverage than anything that happens in rugby league. It's a long time since sport was just about winners and losers!

Why do the clubs "need" the money? Nearly every team in SL spent the maximum amount allowed by the salary cap - so where does the additional revenue go? Thanks to the cap and 20/20 rule it is slowly being taken out of the academy sides. Even Wigan are starting to jettison young players and use established pros.

If SL were really that concerned about the game then they would relax the ridiculous financial restrictions that they place on players wages. No-one is suggesting we return to the old days - however the current situation will ensure that less and less young players are developed here.

I fail to see the difference in importing French players or importing Aussie/Kiwi ones?

Despite all this I can't see RL "disappearing" any time soon. Attendences are up and there is a core of clubs in the heartland of the sport that are doing very well. I don't see what is so wrong with the RL "heartlands"? Why do expansionists look down their noses at them? They are a place where there is pride and passion about the sport. RL is lucky to have well behaved and good spirited fans (for the most part).

Like I said, if it were up to the fans there probably wouldn't be one french team in SL - never mind 2 and at the end of the day without any fans there definitely WON'T be any money or sponsorship

[the_cow]

i think everyone should just reserve judgement on how unsuccessful les cats have been until after this season- they have signed some really good quality overseas players for this year whilst also recruiting the best players from france. if they finish bottom again this year then its fair enough to suggest that the whole concept of not allowing them to be relegated was a waste of time at the expense of other clubs like cas.

the decision to include an extra french team should be made influenced by the success (or lack of it) shown by les cats.

this is slightly off topic, but given that only another 2 places will be available in 2009 with no promotion or relegation on the horizon, the possible candidates are:

doncaster (shiny new stadium)
leigh
widnes
cas
whitehaven

i dont believe whitehaven will get accepted due to the state of their ground, but do you think teams like leigh and widnes would consider merging to obtain an franchise in superleague or do you think they'd prefer to stay in NL1? it could be possible that only 1 franchise is available if a welsh or french team are given a franchise.

[mike binder]

Matthew posted:
For ease of reading I've cut down some of the quotes for fear of incurring the wrath of Jimmy!

Fraggle posted:
Sorry Matthew, that argument doesn't stand up at all. There are bizarre refereeing performances in every season, Klein last year wasn't on his own, and Sean Long will tell you it's not the first time that St Helens put out a weakened team around a Cup Final! Les Cats aren't the first team to benefit from these things, or would you also argue that some of Bradford's successes in recent years should be devalued because they've been lucky enough to play St Helens when the Saints left out almost an entire first team?

I think you missed my point. Despite having the aforementioned benefits - les cats STILL finished bottom. Would you have been happy if it had been us that was relegated instead of Castleford? The clubs apparently signed up to the agreement to protect the weakest team in the league from relegation - do you think that the vote would have been the same had it been put to the fans? Who after all provide the money and generate the media attention which attracts sponsors?

Fraggle posted:
That depends on your definition of stars. The English, Welsh, Scottish and Irish teams tend to include players from clubs at the bottom part of the league, or even NL1, but they are still international players even if they play for, say, Widnes. The French-born players at Les Catalans are mostly also French internationals, so if representing your country makes you a star then they meet the description.

As for Les Cats being a one-man team, how about Michael Dobson's contribution to their season last year...?

Dobson showed talent at les cats - however he couldn't (and didn't) change the course of their season. It was only when he came to Wigan that he had a sufficient number of quality players around him to really make a difference.

I would define "Stars" in RL as someone who captures the imagination and by their playing encourages youngsters to get involved in the game. No disrespect to them - but I don't see many "stars" in the French National team.

Fraggle posted:
Isn't the league organisation called Superleague (Europe) Limited? So why the obsession with helping GB or English players?

SL Europe is a business - just like Microsoft or Walmart. Their interest is making money for themselves and share holders - they are not a charitable concern.

I am English (and British) and that is why I am obsessed with helping GB players.

Fraggle posted:
That's not the sole purpose of our league, and indeed the international teams come under the remit of the RFL, not Superleague, so it should be up to the RFL to try and improve the situation as much as, if not more, than the league. Petty distinction, perhaps, but they are two seperate organisations with different roles in our sport.

However I don't see the NRL trying to encourage the game in Tonga by allowing them a team into the NRL; or Somoa for that reason. The South Sea Islands are far more rugby orientated than the round ball purists of france.

Fraggle posted:
SL(E)'s primary aim will be to try to get the best spectacle they can, and that doesn't necessary involve what's best for GB, England, traditional RL areas etc.

As I stated above, I believe that SL(E)'s principal concern is money and that definitely has nothing to do with anything else

Fraggle posted:
And the reality is our sport struggles to get sponsors for its major competitions (Challenge Cup now being sponsored by a university?!) so money is an important issue.

Other sponsors were on the table for the CC. The RFL chose Leeds Uni.

Fraggle posted:
It's not really any different to any other sport - in soccer there's the issue about the number of English clubs in the European Champions League. In the old days, only the Champions were allowed to partake, which seemed very sensible to me, but some of the big clubs who didn't qualify for a few years wanted more money so the competition was changed to allow several clubs from the major leagues, including non-Champions which to me makes a mockery of a "Champions" league but it's worth too much financially to the clubs to get them to change.

The last place we need to copy ideas is from football - which is the most money obsessed sport in the world - $250 million for a player past his best for a team that wouldn't get into the first division (or whatever it is called this week) over here - lunacy!

Fraggle posted:
Our sport needs the money as much as any other sport, we will disappear if we don't especially in a media climate where even our appalling record in cricket and rugby union, tennis failures and boxers with more money than sense all get far more coverage than anything that happens in rugby league. It's a long time since sport was just about winners and losers!

Why do the clubs "need" the money? Nearly every team in SL spent the maximum amount allowed by the salary cap - so where does the additional revenue go? Thanks to the cap and 20/20 rule it is slowly being taken out of the academy sides. Even Wigan are starting to jettison young players and use established pros.

If SL were really that concerned about the game then they would relax the ridiculous financial restrictions that they place on players wages. No-one is suggesting we return to the old days - however the current situation will ensure that less and less young players are developed here.

I fail to see the difference in importing French players or importing Aussie/Kiwi ones?

Despite all this I can't see RL "disappearing" any time soon. Attendences are up and there is a core of clubs in the heartland of the sport that are doing very well. I don't see what is so wrong with the RL "heartlands"? Why do expansionists look down their noses at them? They are a place where there is pride and passion about the sport. RL is lucky to have well behaved and good spirited fans (for the most part).

Like I said, if it were up to the fans there probably wouldn't be one french team in SL - never mind 2 and at the end of the day without any fans there definitely WON'T be any money or sponsorship

is this the longest post in history

[Bear]

Maybe :conf: Were going to have to have post numbers at the bottom insted of pages if we keep posting things this long

[DaveO]

mike binder posted:
is this the longest post in history

No that was yours because you quoted the entire thing and added a line to it!! :doz:

Dave